fflogs and privacy

[TaleraRistain]

Wanting to hide your fflogs is a massive red flag

this is also not the same as a literal stalking plugin

It's not remotely a red flag. People are sh*tty to others over logs when those others never touch endgame content. So any of us who do use them for their intended purpose should need to actively opt-in.

[Kaurhz]

It's not remotely a red flag. People are sh*tty to others over logs when those others never touch endgame content. So any of us who do use them for their intended purpose should need to actively opt-in.

I don't disagree that that it should be opt-in but...

To be honest, this is one of those situations where... The absence of information is almost always interpreted to be worse than the presence of it, as people can only assume the worse. So it typically does raise red flags with a lot of people due to the nature of the game.. - Now whether it should or not is a different discussion.

Also, honestly, most of the times I've seen people that are 'bad' to others, is when they try to interject into a conversation which they may not be suited towards being in. e.g., "Why are you having an opinion on this, when you haven't even actually done this". It's the same line of thinking of "Why are you talking about the story of this game, when you've skipped every cutscene"

[TaleraRistain]

I don't disagree that that it should be opt-in but...

To be honest, this is one of those situations where... The absence of information is almost always interpreted to be worse than the presence of it, as people can only assume the worse. So it typically does raise red flags with a lot of people due to the nature of the game.. - Now whether it should or not is a different discussion.

Also, honestly, most of the times I've seen people that are 'bad' to others, is when they try to interject into a conversation which they may not be suited towards being in. e.g., "Why are you having an opinion on this, when you haven't even actually done this". It's the same line of thinking of "Why are you talking about the story of this game, when you've skipped every cutscene"

The only reason the absence of information is interpreted as bad is because this process is opt-out. If it was opt-in and the data was anonymous otherwise, then it would be natural that there would be people who didn't have logs because they don't engage with the content that makes having an account on that site necessary.

And trust me, people are judging logs even in casual content. The stuff I hear and see in raiding Discords just makes me shake my head sometimes. I don't care what color the dps is parsing in Jeuno if they can't stay out of the AoEs and stop taking avoidable damage. And I also don't care if someone in a dungeon isn't doing their rotation right because we're not trying to beat enrage on a dungeon boss and if I looked at their logs I could see they've never even done an Extreme. But there are plenty who talk trash about these very people because they're obsessed with numbers.

[SongOfTheWind]

Wanting to hide your fflogs is a massive red flag

this is also not the same as a literal stalking plugin

Wanting to see other fflogs without their consent is the red flag.
The latter I agree with.

[Lilapop]

Wanting to hide your fflogs is a massive red flag

this is also not the same as a literal stalking plugin

Translation: "letting people harass people with bad logs is ok, however, stalking is messed up bro!"

[BigCheez]

FFLogs doesn't store any sensitive information about your account. It isn't remotely comparable to the stalker plogon.

Logs and the associated analysis tools are invaluable for a player's improvement while the stalker plogon provides literally zero value for anyone. There is no use case for PlayerScope beyond sussy levels of snooping and targeted harassment via the marketboard.

Translation: "letting people harass people with bad logs is ok, however, stalking is messed up bro!"

If you don't care about your performance, why would your logs bother you?
If you do care about your performance, why do you have bad logs?

If you're embarrassed by your logs, just go fflogs-hidden.

[Lilapop]

FFLogs doesn't store any sensitive information about your account. It isn't remotely comparable to the stalker plogon.



If you don't care about your performance, why would your logs bother you?
If you do care about your performance, why do you have bad logs?

Can't tell if you're intentionally being obtuse or if you actually are missing my point. Either way, I'll elaborate.

People always look at logs and ONLY ever react with helpful tips and tricks to improve, right? People never, ever, EVER, in the history of EVER have a go at someone with what they consider "bad" logs, even in normal content, right? This has never happened before in the history of FF14, right? No, no, and no. If you think any of that is true, you're painfully naive. Someone else in this thread alone has said logs are being judged in normal content, and I've even been a bystander to it myself. If people don't care about their performance they should 100% have a way to tick it to private so someone who's trying to save .1 of a second doesn't make a scene in random normal content.

However, the people who do care about it should keep it on. Ideally, personal choice. If someone doesn't care about their performance, little Timmy making fun of them in chat definitely won't make them care about it after.

[BigCheez]

Can't tell if you're intentionally being obtuse or if you actually are missing my point. Either way, I'll elaborate.

People always look at logs and ONLY ever react with helpful tips and tricks to improve, right? People never, ever, EVER, in the history of EVER have a go at someone with what they consider "bad" logs, even in normal content, right? This has never happened before in the history of FF14, right? No, no, and no. If you think any of that is true, you're painfully naive. Someone else in this thread alone has said logs are being judged in normal content, and I've even been a bystander to it myself. If people don't care about their performance they should 100% have a way to tick it to private so someone who's trying to save .1 of a second doesn't make a scene in random normal content.

However, the people who do care about it should keep it on. Ideally, personal choice. If someone doesn't care about their performance, little Timmy making fun of them in chat definitely won't make them care about it after.

The overwhelming majority of the time, yes - they're just used for improvement, vanity parsing, or as part of a static recruitment process.

I'm sure there have been unhinged individuals who call out people for having bad logs in normal mode content. I've never seen it myself, but given some of the lunatics I've encountered in XIV, it wouldn't surprise me at all. If the miniscule possibility of that happening bothers you, go fflogs-hidden.

Either way, if someone calls you out for having bad logs, you can just say "who asked?" and/or blacklist the person and that's pretty much the end of it. This isn't like PlayerScope, which actually gives players access to information that can be used to grief via the marketboard.

[ForteNightshade]

Can't tell if you're intentionally being obtuse or if you actually are missing my point. Either way, I'll elaborate.

People always look at logs and ONLY ever react with helpful tips and tricks to improve, right? People never, ever, EVER, in the history of EVER have a go at someone with what they consider "bad" logs, even in normal content, right? This has never happened before in the history of FF14, right? No, no, and no. If you think any of that is true, you're painfully naive. Someone else in this thread alone has said logs are being judged in normal content, and I've even been a bystander to it myself. If people don't care about their performance they should 100% have a way to tick it to private so someone who's trying to save .1 of a second doesn't make a scene in random normal content.

However, the people who do care about it should keep it on. Ideally, personal choice. If someone doesn't care about their performance, little Timmy making fun of them in chat definitely won't make them care about it after.

By this logic, we should ban chat. After all, people harass in chat and say mean things, right? Doesn't matter if it's an exceedingly low number and the vast majority interactive normally or don't say anything at all. If any harassment happens whatsoever, ban the thing!

Most people using FFlogs only care about their performance or how your performance affects it, and whether or not they want to be in a party with you. In the latter case, they'll simply leave without saying a word. Do some people harass? Of course. Just like some people harass in PvP or shout chat or hunt trains. Some people are simply jerks. That doesn't mean everyone is. And very few people care about logs outside of high end content. Hence why you can parse 99 in a 24 man by simply having a pulse. Heck, I had someone in M2N a few months back deliberately wipe the party because he was trying to parse normal. The in game chat made fun of him. He didn't harass anyone, he got "harassed". That's in a random DF queue. Which highlights just how much of a meme people think parsing in normal content is.

The only reason you hear about harassment more regarding FFlogs is the same reason Tales of Duty Finder exists: people only talk about the memorable bad encounter they had, not the endlessly forgettable good encounters that are the norm.

I've been in Discord voice chat with people doing exactly this. They go look up someone's logs when we're in Jeuno, for pete's sake.

Operative word here is "discord."

Who cares what they're saying in a private discord call? So long as they aren't telling the person themselves or actively harassing them, if they wanna laugh about "omg look how bad his DPS!!!" who cares? That's no different than people without a parse laughing "LOL the WHM died AGAIN! They're soooo bad!!"

If you don't like your discord friends meme-ing on someone in a private call. Don't join the call?

[Tulvi]

Wanting to hide your fflogs is a massive red flag

No it’s not a red flag. I do high end content, or at least have a go at few savage / extreme clears every expansion as I’m not someone who would enjoy something like a raid schedule (I personally dislike subjecting my gameplay to a schedule, it’s a pastime for me and a static schedule would make it feel like a chore), and I never had problems clearing without looking up people on FF logs. I have my own character opted out for harassment reasons I encountered back in WoW, where the player base was overly toxic by standard and I’d also say by design. From my 10+ years of experience from WoW, I absolutely agree with Yoshi that DPS meters and logs do fuel toxicity and are unnecessary unless someone wants to optimise their gameplay to the limit.

From my experience with Savage / Extreme, the only reason when logs might be needed is when forming a static and you as a group want to min-max and optimise the **** out of the gameplay / rotation.
Otherwise, I have never felt the need to consult FF logs in any content I have cleared, because in 99% cases of clearing / progging through Party Finder, it is very evident what is the issue if the group is struggling, and people who screw something up usually identify the problem on their own. Plus most PF parties disband before any issue might be resolved, but that’s another topic entirely.