fflogs and privacy

[Alice_Rivers]

I really don't see a problem here, kicking or sidelining or harassing people using logs is against TOS and therefore reportable, and there's a method (which admittedly could be better displayed) to hide your logs if you're really that worried about them.

[BokoToloko]

I really don't see a problem here, kicking or sidelining or harassing people using logs is against TOS and therefore reportable, and there's a method (which admittedly could be better displayed) to hide your logs if you're really that worried about them.

Problem is, not everyone knows about fflogs, the site also shows logs on casual fights (normal raids and ARs) meaning there can be logs of a character that hasn't ever touched anything beyond EX trials and this solution places the burden of responsibility on users, who aren't really at fault. Also, ayone who looks to harrass people thrugh the logs will move to take the hidden logs as an admission of guilt of sorts as a hidden logs makes it obvious that the person knows about the page and has gone out of their way to hid the data. And it sounds like splitting hairs but, sadly, that's about how persistent people can get. This kind of mindset has even surfaced on the TalesFromDF subreddit.

They could, at the very least, set character logs to be hidden by default, instead of the other way around. The best way to deal with a problem is to prevent it from happening to begin with, rather than deal with it when it comes to the door.

[CaedemSanguis]

Problem is, not everyone knows about fflogs, the site also shows logs on casual fights (normal raids and ARs) meaning there can be logs of a character that hasn't ever touched anything beyond EX trials and this solution places the burden of responsibility on users, who aren't really at fault. Also, ayone who looks to harrass people thrugh the logs will move to take the hidden logs as an admission of guilt of sorts as a hidden logs makes it obvious that the person knows about the page and has gone out of their way to hid the data. And it sounds like splitting hairs but, sadly, that's about how persistent people can get. This kind of mindset has even surfaced on the TalesFromDF subreddit.

They could, at the very least, set character logs to be hidden by default, instead of the other way around. The best way to deal with a problem is to prevent it from happening to begin with, rather than deal with it when it comes to the door.

who tf harass casuals doing their roulettes/24 man raid ? what the hell lol

[BokoToloko]

who tf harass casuals doing their roulettes/24 man raid ? what the hell lol

I already had someone harrass me in Zadnor, of all places, and come out of the blue with parses from E10N (they pretty much searched me on fflogs, looking for something to bash me with) about one or two years ago. And I'm saying this as someone who barely gets involved with anything beyond the occasional EX PF, let alone get involved with serious raiding circles, where a good chunk of the drama gathers (the other place being RP places).

You can be years here and still be surprised by the lack of inhibition some players have. Could make for a theorical law: "People always underestimate the amount of unhinged people circulating in FFXIV community".

[BigCheez]

I already had someone harrass me in Zadnor, of all places, and come out of the blue with parses from E10N (they pretty much searched me on fflogs, looking for something to bash me with) about one or two years ago.

You can be years here and still be surprised by the lack of inhibition some players have. Could make for a theorical law: "People always underestimate the amount of unhinged people circulating in FFXIV community".

What some people fail to realise, is that while this small minority of unhinged individuals does exist, they don't actually need FFLogs to be unhinged individuals. If someone wants to be an elitist weirdo in a videogame, they'll do it using whatever information they can get their hands on. If they couldn't find you on FFLogs, they'd search you somewhere else and find something else. There's plenty of information on Lodestone.

This doesn't have anything to do with FFLogs and unlike the data that's available through the stalker plogon, they can't actually use it to do anything that will directly affect your gameplay experience.

[CaedemSanguis]

I really don't see a problem here, kicking or sidelining or harassing people using logs is against TOS and therefore reportable, and there's a method (which admittedly could be better displayed) to hide your logs if you're really that worried about them.

yeah, I think the same

dont really see the problem

[NanaWiloh]

LOL that does not work when I joined a static that were friends and raided together previously. The point, again, is that fflogs colors and numbers will not tell you if someone is going to be a reliable party member or not. Even if you wanted to analyze fights like you're talking about, the data can't tell you if it was due to greed or inexperience or even something agreed upon by the party.

This is very true there are players who run normal content pushing 90% parse and play like bosses. But the moment they step into savage it all goes down hill.

[AmiableApkallu]

It's passing strange to see so much push-back against the idea that someone should have to opt-in to being searchable on FF Logs and having their name displayed.

If there exist people who would harass their fellow player's performance regardless of logs, then what does it matter if the site is opt-in by default? Might as well pick "privacy" as the default, in that case.

Or for people who care about openness, for example:

As someone who raids, having your logs hidden is just odd. It gives the impression that you either have something to hide, are defensive about your performance, or are self-conscious about the perception that you're being judged, all of which are very undesirable traits in static members and tend to lead to toxic raid environments. Most statics will want players who are open, honest and give & receive feedback well.

these people would surely appreciate a system where players have to opt-in and thus provide positive confirmation that they're "open, honest" rather than the current system which tells you nothing about all that.

In the end, FF Logs is a money data launderer. Whether or not the site itself violates FFXIV's TOS, it exists only because of data acquired via means that do violate the TOS. It's entirely reasonable that players should have to opt-in to that data laundering ecosystem.

[Aravell]

Honestly, the reason some people tend to view hidden logs as a red flag now is because in order to hide your logs, you'd have to know about the website and take direct action in order to hide your profile, so some people do tend to assume that you have something to hide.

But if they made the website opt-in by default with the profile of someone who hasn't opted-in unavailable to view, hidden profiles are no longer suspect because there is no direct action that needs to be taken to hide a profile, the person with a hidden profile may just simply not know the site even exists.

Also, whatever anyone says, opt-in default with hidden profiles for anyone who didn't opt-in will not "make the site unusable", all the data will still be there, you just won't be able to see the name, world, datacenter and raiding history of that one guy that died 15 times in alliance C.

If someone intends to apply for your static, you can simply deny them if they don't have their profile public for you to check.

Also, saying that the numbers website doesn't affect someone's gameplay unlike the other thing is false. Even in this thread, you see people saying they kick people immediately for not meeting their standards after checking the site, so that person is being kicked immediately from a party that they wouldn't have been kicked from if the site didn't exist, I'd say that's affecting their gameplay.

[Archmortal]

The idea that FFLogs should be opt-in is perfectly reasonable. Every plug-in that tracks player data of any kind should be opt-in, period. Aravell is hitting the nail on the head. Opt-in won't change anything for the people that want it, and it's one less vector for the minority of jerks to treat others horribly. Win-win. I'll cry a river for the static that has to occasionally wait for a new recruit to voluntarily join the ecosystem.