#FFXIVHEALERSTRIKE

[Lorika]

@Tigore
A build system is the worst thing that can happen to a MMO. While it promise versatibility and flexibility, in fact it was proven numerous time that, in the end, only a couple of meta Build would work for each class.
Thoses meta Build creating gate keeping in all kind of content.
Some game are heavily affected by this gate keeping.

@ForasakenRoe
The actual Materia system "doesn't work".
Because the substat need a complete rework.

[Shurrikhan]

Build diversity "doesn't work" only if (A) there is a set best composition for a different encounter, (B) you ignore all play outside of the best comp, (C) acknowledge only the build diversity per comp per encounter (e.g., even if another could is best in any other context, you still count that as only one build "seeing use"), and (D) the imbalance between the best comp and others are great enough to devalue other forms of customization-based optimization.

To be clear, I'm no advocate of expensive customization systems and would be hesitant to recommend XIV add any beyond the jobs themselves, but you're making a fundamental conclusion out of a singular circumstance, whatever its frequency, all while ignoring the main reason customization of any sort (be it job choice or talent choice) exists.

Those who would simply look up a general purpose build aren't those such customization is for, but to call customization a waste for that reason makes no more sense than to call the existence of any other job a waste because some people play only one or having more than a single two jobs each for Tanks, Healers, Melee, and Ranged a waste because only a limited number each would be optimal (or any more than 1 each a waste if not for Limit Gauge debuffs). And those who simply look up the "meta" build to be used acontextually are not only similarly opting out of engaging with the given options but usually fair worse than those who pick something less "meta" but makes sense for the actual level and stage of play among them and their party.

[Lorika]

Ok i will be more clear.
Build system doesn't work in MMO because : all the MMO, without exception, using the build system have heavy unbalance problem... Thus, creating only a couple of optimized and viable Build per class, thus leading to gate keeping.

In the end, the vast majority of people are playing the same few meta build.... Which just render the build system useless.

[Shurrikhan]

Let's take WoW as the obvious example here. And will take that single class example to start. Despite the ability to nigh-instantly import meta builds, going by the likes of archon, u.gg, etc., Warriors see more than 30 builds played across raid, and about as many again played each across M+ and PvP. The degree of difference and the slope of spread in popularity vary, of course, but let's not forget that these are solely among logged ("parsehead") runs even then. They're far from doing this for the kicks or "uniqueness" points.

You can call it an annoyance that different fights reward certain extra capabilities above progress, causing shifts in a spec's "most optimal" build. Similarly, you could be annoyed that, for a particular favorite spec, your favorite playstyle's build would fall 1.3% behind another you find less engaging. But it's far from one build per spec or even per content type.

Now, is all that worth the cost to implement and balance those choices, imo? No, generally not. But failure isn't an inevitability.

[Kohashi]

@Kohashi

What I am saying is that every Healer performs the same purpose but the difference lies in how. The more healers there are the more overlapping there will be especially in this game where various constraints severely limit stuff (rotations, drifts, weaving, server..etc).

For example, a healer here would never be able to grant Spell/Skill-casting reduction due to how rotations work in this game while in theory the faster you cast spells/skills the greater the damage is no?

As for my top-of-the-head idea with the color change, it is persistent, it doesn't expire and while it looks familiar, the PCT spell is only visual, a condensed 1-2-3 if you will. It has limited intractability and it doesn't transform all of the spells or how they perform. That role is limited to Stary Muse and directly tied to the burst phase.

@ForsakenRoe

I mean it is subjective what others (Tigore) think and saying it's a good way to solve an existing problem. And let's say... your suggestion is viable, the fact you need people to play perfectly already puts you at a loss. Yes, some stuff does overlap and yes you do have an abundance of spells that provide the same thing but I do think they exist to accommodate all levels of skill and execution.

As for the innovation, it is directly tied that you simply do the exact thing SE already does. It has nothing extra or new. For example, your shield is a worse version of Divine Caress since that gives a shield + regen while yours only gives a shield.

As for the color change, is just-> Glare hit-> change color-> persistent. Want to change? Mechanics coming? Can I dps? Does anyone need heal/rez?-> Glare again. (It can function as a "stance" change since you seem to be into that idea)

As for the talent tree, yes I didn't mention it however I didn't limit you or explicitly say you cannot use it. The only major constraint I provided you with was that the end result should be 10 spells. How it plays, what the spells do and how was completely up to you. You just assumed there was no talent tree involved.

As for bringing into discussion what Lucrecia did is just a very poor argument because those people not only have extensive knowledge in raiding at the top level, they also have mastery over the classes but above all coordination.
Do you really think they went in there and were like.. hey guys.. let's go CNJ + sch, 1 pull, 1 kill. The average Joe will NEVER be able to pull that. Can it be done? Well duh!!, can 99.99% of the player base do it? Hell no! Do you even want the 0.001% to become a staple in any content, sure, if you want to kill off the game?

As for my idea, it's just a random idea I had in the spur of the moment. Nothing planned to a T because while I do think class design can improve some people give SE a lot more shit than they should and they don't respect the depth of how the classes have been planned. This is in fact the entire purpose of the debate with you.

Anyway, I digress..

[Absurdity]

What I am saying is that every Healer performs the same purpose but the difference lies in how. The more healers there are the more overlapping there will be especially in this game where various constraints severely limit stuff (rotations, drifts, weaving, server..etc).

For example, a healer here would never be able to grant Spell/Skill-casting reduction due to how rotations work in this game while in theory the faster you cast spells/skills the greater the damage is no?

Except we had that, both in Selene's Fey Wind and Astro's Arrow card.

What you're doing here is assuming that because right now everything revolves around static rotations and fixed burst windows that we can't have haste buffs.


These restrictions aren't some kind of immutable characteristic of the game, they're self-imposed by the developers since Endwalker and didn't even exist for the longest time.

[Kohashi]

Except we had that, both in Selene's Fey Wind and Astro's Arrow card.

What you're doing here is assuming that because right now everything revolves around static rotations and fixed burst windows that we can't have haste buffs.


These restrictions aren't some kind of immutable characteristic of the game, they're self-imposed by the developers since Endwalker and didn't even exist for the longest time.

Fair enough but if you want to completely move away from that system, the 2.5s and weave philosophy SE might have to go back to the roots and make a different Engine plus completely re-design how every system works and interacts with each other.

Even if you dismantle the synchronized Burst meta some spells will still have a prior system within the class and providing a spell/skill speed will skew the entire rotation. I personally do love the idea of such a buff and many more. Like for example I would love to see a Chrono Healer that would manipulate the time.

For example a spell. Rewind - rewinds the party HP to 5s ago. Used-> let's say after a major mechanic and it will heal back to what those previous values were. (also imagine somebody low HP-> gets healed-> Rewind happens-> back to low HP-> hahaha )

Fast Forward -> Provides a 10% Spell/skill speed reduction Or flat.. I am undecided...LOL.

[Tigore]

If we do look at the competitor Warcraft, Haste functions better there. They even have an OP 30% Haste buff window provided from Bloodlust / Heroism / Time Warp. Although they handle party DPS buffs differently to make it possible. If there are some additional changes in the latest two expansions that change this a bit, apologies for missing them.

The main difference is the buffs are essentially apply and forget for 30 minutes to an hour. They are weaker versions of our FF14 buffs that are persistent for every moment. Two classes that provide the same type of buff do not stack either and just overwrite each other. In a way, they function like our buffs that are provided by having a certain role in the party (Eg. 1% all stats if a Physical Range is present = Blessing of Kings for WoW Paladin). The only other buff window I remember would be DPS potions and those can be independent for everyone too. As a result, you can drift away from other people's burst all you want and it would be okay in most cases. As long as everyone at least capitalizes on the 30% Haste window first. The debuff cooldown is so long that you usually expect just one per encounter.

If we translate this to FF14, we would either have to remove the burst party buffs like Battle Litany or Trick Attack or purposely desync their cooldown timers. The former would be way easier to do since a 1 minute timer still meshes well with 2 minutes. Other than that, reducing cooldown timers from Haste would be bad with what we got here.

[Shurrikhan]

The long-term WoW buffs function as no more than our 1% stat buff each for each role included in a party, with the sole difference that they fall off on death.

It had quite a few actual active (de)buffs in the past to concentrate fire similar to Resistance Down debuffs, but outside of Augmentor abilities, a couple Paladin spells, the aforementioned Heroism/Bloodlust/Time warp/Evoker_Reskin and Power Infusion, those are now likewise nigh-passive in PvE if the enemy is not CC-able, applied simply by any Monk (physical) or Demon Hunter (magical) hitting the target. In PvP, they're still very present, though.

Aside: XIV alpha iterations actually played around with a basis for a couple relatively straightforward solutions for both syncing varying GCD speeds and for otherwise inflexible raid buffs: like Energy in WoW, one could pool Stamina Points (SP) and thereby have, say, a one-third margin by which to "overclock" their rotation for a burst and slow down again later in compensation until recovered, and Technique Points (TP) would be used only for... group-affecting "Techniques" a la XIII's place for such a gauge but with more frequent interaction. Accordingly, all GCD speeds and raid (de)buffs were inherently flexible, and raid buffs (direct or indirect, AoE or as a debuff on target) had to be sparingly introduced as to be tactically distinct and individually interesting due to competing with each other. /shrug

[Kohashi]

snip

One major reason why I played every single MMO under the sun before committing to FF14 was because it was the casual WoW copy. A game that I tried and fell asleep playing, bored out of my mind despite being a huge WoW lore nerd and lover.


Let's leave WoW alone, not like it doesn't have its own set of issues. Also, I was watching Todd's stream today and he mentioned that he finds WoW refreshing after a big FF14 burnout while his friend that he was leveling with said the other thing around.

So I think some just suffer from burnout and think the grass is greener on the other side.