Please let us keep our abilities on sync down

[Shougun]

Assume Square Enix has numbers for maximum damage from each job at each level, as well as numbers for the speed of damage delivery at each instance level, as well as mean-time-to-defeat each mob type at each instance level.

After applying a conversion table, you get your level 100 rotation in Sastasha.

In order to get through Sastasha, your combined DPS with full job bar will be slightly lower than an at-level-with-limited-rotation player.

This is what you will accept?

Just like how I'm talking I'm assuming you're not suggesting 'just' these mentioned variables, as I imagine polish will end up with a few more (for either of us when talking lol). If so, honestly that is generally the description of the sync yeah.

Only one that worries me slightly was mean time to defeat, unless you are talking about my stagger system suggestion in which case that might be helpful yeah*. But if you're talking about just curving people down and calling it done, I think your first two items are the bigger tickets and probably leave mean time out.

* Stagger system was doing more than just dampening high levels, it would be addressing our ilvling content and creating rewarding gameplay systems for that extra damage. For the intention of keeping time to reward similar but increasing quality time in those contents (so that epic god boss that a player is doing for MSQ still feels cool, but high levels players are not pulling out all their chocobo feathers due to boredom and lack of time value).

Yes I expect a level 10 to have some spells that are technically weaker than the level 100 in unmodified situations be stronger than the level 100 due to the dampening (because those higher level jobs will have other things going on, like ogcds)

I expect the full bar to probably be slightly less damage, though the features may occasionally shine. Since we won't spend time trying to figure out if it's fair that a job can raise, heal, or group speed (healing potency will be dampened like damage, but the feature of it existing- no). We're just focused on algorithmically dampening damage in a way that encourages the player to use their kit in a similar way (so you don't get synced down and suddenly the best choice is to only use the first skill in your combo sequence).

The point to me is definitely not to allow a full kit so the boss is dying even faster, I would argue that would be worse.. but it is to maintain an interesting kit.

[Daralii]

Assume Square Enix has numbers for maximum damage from each job at each level, as well as numbers for the speed of damage delivery at each instance level, as well as mean-time-to-defeat each mob type at each instance level.

After applying a conversion table, you get your level 100 rotation in Sastasha.

In order to get through Sastasha, your combined DPS with full job bar will be slightly lower than an at-level-with-limited-rotation player.

This is what you will accept?

Yes, because who the hell cares about being top damage in roulette dungeons from 2013? It's more engaging to use my full rotation than 1->2 until one mob is dead, hitting tab, and repeating for 10-15 minutes.

[ovIm]

No. Learn to read. I am literally stating objective facts. Those games are those games, this game is this game. I know, I know, how dare I speak ill of your beloved FF14.

But... you were literally defending CS3 by stating these facts and defending the current status quo (and are following up by implying someone criticising FFXIV is mad you are speaking ill of FFXIV). This is not about which game is which, this discussion was about whether making higher level skills available in an MMO ("a game like FFXIV") is possible, and as other games in the same genre have shown: yes, it is possible, and yes, CS3 should consider doing something similar, as the current iteration of how level sync works has only become worse over time due to how skills were pruned and how classes evolved.

[technole]

Ultimate would not and should not be impacted by a level sync overhaul, so that point is moot. Each ultimate encounter should be left exactly as intended.

You know any overhaul that's done in 8.0 is only going to be relevant for the max level, once again leaving behind another expansion that feels lame to go back and do content for. This is absolutely worth consideration because what, 80-90% of their game now is synced? So much content feels like ass to play right now and it doesn't have to be that way.

Nope. Old ultimates and any sync'd content gets slightly easier each expansion because they do adjust potencies, traits, and other things for lower-than-max level skills. Nevermind new jobs tend to come out of the gate with higher than usual potencies at all levels, like a certain painting job. So yes it does matter if every skill needed a database entry for different level points, that's more work for so little gain. The thought process with MMO is make both throwaway and also some content they can future-proof to some extent like criterion and ultimates and move on.

[brinn12]

I would 100% support this idea, but it's never going to happen. The developers didn't even bother with giving healers or DRG AoE abilities before level 40, even though some jobs get them before level 20. Asking for a full kit is just unreasonable.

They don't give much attention to low level content, and have only been changing it to accomodate the game for solo players. 10 years later, and job crystals are still not mandatory for level cap content...

[Deniza]

Ultimate would not and should not be impacted by a level sync overhaul, so that point is moot. Each ultimate encounter should be left exactly as intended.

You know any overhaul that's done in 8.0 is only going to be relevant for the max level, once again leaving behind another expansion that feels lame to go back and do content for. This is absolutely worth consideration because what, 80-90% of their game now is synced? So much content feels like ass to play right now and it doesn't have to be that way.

Ultimate is changed every time they change abilities and move them to a lower level. When they rework jobs like SMN, when they put in new jobs like PCT.
It never is as it was on release.

[Deniza]

Assume Square Enix has numbers for maximum damage from each job at each level, as well as numbers for the speed of damage delivery at each instance level, as well as mean-time-to-defeat each mob type at each instance level.

After applying a conversion table, you get your level 100 rotation in Sastasha.

In order to get through Sastasha, your combined DPS with full job bar will be slightly lower than an at-level-with-limited-rotation player.

This is what you will accept?

If that would be the case yes, Cause I don't care about if I do 15 or 10 dps in sastasha. it is so damn low, the dungeon is so damn fast and you skip every major mechanic already. Yes I absolutely accept it if I am able to press my buttons I have at lvl 100.

[Mikey_R]

Eh if they stagger for bonus damage we're assuming we've done what I said and brought runaway scaling down a little, so to be honest no. You definitely don't have that issue. Since you're behind the runaway that we already have (that idea if you read had multiple reasons, one of which was to preserve an interesting content and not turn them into 15 second jokes). So, it's better than before actually.

If staggering increases the damage you do, you either do more damage than intended, or, you you have another variable to balance around, one which necessarily has to change depending on level.

I think you're just having trouble imagining a job curved down and others are not....

Also I've seen you mention low levels curve a few times and I don't know why because in our situation we are not doing time walking. The low levels are just coming in to do the content as is, unlike time walking we are only poking high levels. We are only dampening.. we don't need to boost.

I think you are misunderstanding me when I am talking about damage curves. At low level, your DPS over the course of a battle stays relatively flat, as you get more and more levels and inevitably get more and more things to shove into the burst, it spikes up massively. This would already be a tough thing to do, considering Paladin had to get reworked because of this very same issue. This causes issue with downtime, whether that be in a fight or between trash packs in a dungeon, with things still ticking down, you have more periods of engagement in your burst window, which means you do more damage, on average anyway.

As for the comment about other games doing it, I don't know how they operate so I cannot comment, however, I'm also not going to just take it at face value. Even in this topic there are opposing views as to whether WoW does it successfully or not.

Regardless of how hard balancing a curve (not stagger system), I still think that will be much easier and sustainable than hand tweaks to all jobs, but I don't care how they make earlier levels feel better if the end result is it feels better.

The system that might need to be re-tweaked every expansion, and would likely need different balancing concerns between jobs is more sustainable than one that is, put work in and leave alone unless major job changes happen? Sorry, I don't see the logic there.

If that would be the case yes, Cause I don't care about if I do 15 or 10 dps in sastasha. it is so damn low, the dungeon is so damn fast and you skip every major mechanic already. Yes I absolutely accept it if I am able to press my buttons I have at lvl 100.

Even assuming you never complete your burst in full before things die?

[Deniza]

Even assuming you never complete your burst in full before things die?

Well, yes, just take the burst to the next mob group, Buffs last long enough.

[Shougun]

If staggering increases the damage you do, you either do more damage than intended, or, you you have another variable to balance around, one which necessarily has to change depending on level.

I think you misunderstood that one. It's a /separate/ idea. So read it in isolation. In case the previous text was not straight forward here is a different telling of it:


Stagger / break / skill play system:


- Take the expected amount of time and damage done in that content that would lead to an interesting fight. Great, store this. They might not have 'that' variable done, but I would be insanely bemused if they didn't have any variable that could construct that (like I'm sure someone has an excel of expectations, DPZ2 like variables already mentioned).

- Filter damage against this system, express those excess damage in the new systems. Do not apply it like regular damage. This fundamentally means that the fights are not faster. ilvl creep is now being siphoned out, or a job that came in late and isn't as well balanced, is being managed.

- Express that excess damage in greater rewards and variations in the fight. This CAN (does not have) to be temporary stagger gauges that return some of the acceleration that you previously experienced (like a damage multiplier, as some FF games have done stagger, or as I suggested gray health DOTs that apply a portion of the excess back). Read strongly the word SOME.


Fundamentally the fights will be more similar to their intended design, you will be seeing more of the fights- even if you're MAX ilvl. However, you will also be getting basically little missions and different ways to interact with the boss in best case scenarios. In worst case scenarios its just little rewards you're breaking off the boss by over preforming.



This means that while the dungeon PRE system was faster the dungeon POST system is equally if not more rewarding but will take MORE time / skill. Because it is siphoning off some of that excess and turning into reward structures.


The filter reads incoming damage so it doesn't really care who or what (much more general filter than the other conversation about job curves, this one is just a great filter wall), making it technically easier than running passes over all the jobs in something that is attempting to keep the structure the same. This system can also be slapped onto hunts and other stuff, so they're less vapor lol.


That whole thing is a entirely new separate concept to the curves we've been talking about. This is not min ilvl and I hope no one is silly enough to suggest that, as this does allow for some growth but ALSO rewards you for growth beyond what would effectively make the content unfun. I also suggested this system in a sense for solo'ing old stuff. Whats more fun, solo'ing the fight in 1 min over and over and over till you get your mount- or solo'ing it for 5 - 7 minutes paying attention to all the mechanics you can and getting a huge payout for it?


This system is saying "sometimes your gear isn't going to make the game FASTER, but it will help you make it more rewarding!". As sometimes faster means worse, actually. Brain dead no fun boss fight. Since it's just a great filter wall, you can also use this system to give jobs their full kits when they sync down cause they'll just add onto the rewards. Which is even better because if you're a high level player coming into old content, you don't normally want anything from it other than to get that roulette bonus-- now you've got encouragement to experience the content AND "earn" more relevant rewards by doing well (using your whole kit).

I think you are misunderstanding me when I am talking about damage curves. At low level, your DPS over the course of a battle stays relatively flat, as you get more and more levels and inevitably get more and more things to shove into the burst, it spikes up massively. This would already be a tough thing to do, considering Paladin had to get reworked because of this very same issue. This causes issue with downtime, whether that be in a fight or between trash packs in a dungeon, with things still ticking down, you have more periods of engagement in your burst window, which means you do more damage, on average anyway.

As for the comment about other games doing it, I don't know how they operate so I cannot comment, however, I'm also not going to just take it at face value. Even in this topic there are opposing views as to whether WoW does it successfully or not.

GW2 and ESO have similar concepts, but eh if you don't want to trust that but I also don't think I need to overly research how one company found out how to fly a plane when I just want this company to have airplanes too lol. Also I understand your concern, I don't misunderstand it. Fundamentally a level 10 kit is DIFFERENT than a level 30, and so on. They have not just simply "higher scaled potency" they have substantial changes. I get that. I am saying it doesn't matter, you can account for that (roughly) but attenuating things to key variables like the ones DPZ2 mention, as long as you're willing to accept a little wonk (like WoW does). You can not like WoW, or ESO, or GW2, which is fine-- but I am saying I would happily accept a little wonk.

The system that might need to be re-tweaked every expansion, and would likely need different balancing concerns between jobs is more sustainable than one that is, put work in and leave alone unless major job changes happen? Sorry, I don't see the logic there.

The suggestion I believe I read from you is to tweak the jobs at lower levels. But each expansion they shift the entire job at higher levels. This means they now have to tweak the job at both ends every expansion. OR... just hit it with some filters that will produce some wonk but will also do things like "not change my kit every time I do something" as some players want to learn their kit, not have parts of it removed that they loved and not practice what is relevant. There are cons of course like a new player is going to see you hitting their poor level 20 spider boss with Bahamut, so I am still not arguing it is perfect.



Yet one algorithmic filter that honestly rarely needs updated, vs every single expansion having to play both ends instead of one end.. One of them sounds a lot easier / sustainable. So I don't see your logic on it either... At least when you're, it appears, arguing a hand tweak of EVERY job is easier than just coming up with a filter that says "I wont be perfect but I am going to squish you all into something that respects the structure of your job, ish".



I disagree with your premise that the algorithm needs tweak every expansion, obviously but it needs stated we are literally opposite here. You think your hand tweak system only needs an occasionally touch and I press doubt because we literally see every expansion they can't / don't do what you're suggesting (they mess with it all for the sake of the end kit), and I am saying do it right once and leave it alone. We're never going to agree on this I think, but I have a hard time seeing how you can't see the logic of designing an algorithm that's job is to wet blanket potency needs stroked more than hand tweaks to each job (and MORE likely every expansion). That said, if they were able to do so successfully, I don't ultimately care how they achieved "interesting gameplay at lower levels" I just really want that. It would be nice to practice the kit that I need to know (max level kit) and not practice the kit that is largely irrelevant so I am bias'd to keeping it intact, but when I do a level 70 dungeon I am not feeling nearly as bad as a level 20.