Please let us keep our abilities on sync down

[Shougun]

If you can get extra potency from staggering/breaking, it is the same issue, just laid out differently.

However, adjusting fight mechanics based on how yo interact with the boss is something I have expressed in the past, mainly by stunning/interrupting casts to change their properties, but this could also be extended to changing several moves. But these sorts of mechanics shouldn't just be limited to just when you are synced down.



I don't think finding exact potencies are needed, but a thought on if changes were made, how will it affect things in general shouldn't be too much to ask. In the case of jobs, going from more sustained jobs, where the burst potential is low, compared to level 100 where the burst potential is very high. You have 2 different damage curves and trying to conform one to the other based on content just isn't going to be easy. The only reason I initially pointed out potencies was to highlight the issue that you cannot just take what we have and assume it will be fine.

Eh if they stagger for bonus damage we're assuming we've done what I said and brought runaway scaling down a little, so to be honest no. You definitely don't have that issue. Since you're behind the runaway that we already have (that idea if you read had multiple reasons, one of which was to preserve an interesting content and not turn them into 15 second jokes). So, it's better than before actually.


I think you're just having trouble imagining a job curved down and others are not. I understand you worry that It is not just the same kit with more potency (the kit is 'different' at different levels), but this issue has already been solved by other MMOs, and as I've been saying you will pass over the kit multiple times to clamp it down in different spots so that these are roughly in line. You will have situations where your big burst that was 1k potency is now 350 (where another spell that was normally 400 potency is 325) which might sound funny, but this stuff has been done. A freebie weave skill may be hit even harder (depending on what the low levels expectations are, as you have said some jobs don't have all that at low levels). The only real thing we won't capture for is features, we're going to ignore if scholar can group combat sprint or someone can raise, while their damage is brought down a lot we'll leave the features.


Also I've seen you mention low levels curve a few times and I don't know why because in our situation we are not doing time walking. The low levels are just coming in to do the content as is, unlike time walking we are only poking high levels. We are only dampening.. we don't need to boost.


We especially don't have an issue if we just do the great filter wall (wrapped in stagger/break), because who cares what your kit says at that point. It just reads the incoming amount lol.


Regardless of how hard balancing a curve (not stagger system), I still think that will be much easier and sustainable than hand tweaks to all jobs, but I don't care how they make earlier levels feel better if the end result is it feels better.

[Mikey_R]

Eh if they stagger for bonus damage we're assuming we've done what I said and brought runaway scaling down a little, so to be honest no. You definitely don't have that issue. Since you're behind the runaway that we already have (that idea if you read had multiple reasons, one of which was to preserve an interesting content and not turn them into 15 second jokes). So, it's better than before actually.

If staggering increases the damage you do, you either do more damage than intended, or, you you have another variable to balance around, one which necessarily has to change depending on level.

I think you're just having trouble imagining a job curved down and others are not....

Also I've seen you mention low levels curve a few times and I don't know why because in our situation we are not doing time walking. The low levels are just coming in to do the content as is, unlike time walking we are only poking high levels. We are only dampening.. we don't need to boost.

I think you are misunderstanding me when I am talking about damage curves. At low level, your DPS over the course of a battle stays relatively flat, as you get more and more levels and inevitably get more and more things to shove into the burst, it spikes up massively. This would already be a tough thing to do, considering Paladin had to get reworked because of this very same issue. This causes issue with downtime, whether that be in a fight or between trash packs in a dungeon, with things still ticking down, you have more periods of engagement in your burst window, which means you do more damage, on average anyway.

As for the comment about other games doing it, I don't know how they operate so I cannot comment, however, I'm also not going to just take it at face value. Even in this topic there are opposing views as to whether WoW does it successfully or not.

Regardless of how hard balancing a curve (not stagger system), I still think that will be much easier and sustainable than hand tweaks to all jobs, but I don't care how they make earlier levels feel better if the end result is it feels better.

The system that might need to be re-tweaked every expansion, and would likely need different balancing concerns between jobs is more sustainable than one that is, put work in and leave alone unless major job changes happen? Sorry, I don't see the logic there.

If that would be the case yes, Cause I don't care about if I do 15 or 10 dps in sastasha. it is so damn low, the dungeon is so damn fast and you skip every major mechanic already. Yes I absolutely accept it if I am able to press my buttons I have at lvl 100.

Even assuming you never complete your burst in full before things die?

[Deniza]

Even assuming you never complete your burst in full before things die?

Well, yes, just take the burst to the next mob group, Buffs last long enough.

[Shougun]

If staggering increases the damage you do, you either do more damage than intended, or, you you have another variable to balance around, one which necessarily has to change depending on level.

I think you misunderstood that one. It's a /separate/ idea. So read it in isolation. In case the previous text was not straight forward here is a different telling of it:


Stagger / break / skill play system:


- Take the expected amount of time and damage done in that content that would lead to an interesting fight. Great, store this. They might not have 'that' variable done, but I would be insanely bemused if they didn't have any variable that could construct that (like I'm sure someone has an excel of expectations, DPZ2 like variables already mentioned).

- Filter damage against this system, express those excess damage in the new systems. Do not apply it like regular damage. This fundamentally means that the fights are not faster. ilvl creep is now being siphoned out, or a job that came in late and isn't as well balanced, is being managed.

- Express that excess damage in greater rewards and variations in the fight. This CAN (does not have) to be temporary stagger gauges that return some of the acceleration that you previously experienced (like a damage multiplier, as some FF games have done stagger, or as I suggested gray health DOTs that apply a portion of the excess back). Read strongly the word SOME.


Fundamentally the fights will be more similar to their intended design, you will be seeing more of the fights- even if you're MAX ilvl. However, you will also be getting basically little missions and different ways to interact with the boss in best case scenarios. In worst case scenarios its just little rewards you're breaking off the boss by over preforming.



This means that while the dungeon PRE system was faster the dungeon POST system is equally if not more rewarding but will take MORE time / skill. Because it is siphoning off some of that excess and turning into reward structures.


The filter reads incoming damage so it doesn't really care who or what (much more general filter than the other conversation about job curves, this one is just a great filter wall), making it technically easier than running passes over all the jobs in something that is attempting to keep the structure the same. This system can also be slapped onto hunts and other stuff, so they're less vapor lol.


That whole thing is a entirely new separate concept to the curves we've been talking about. This is not min ilvl and I hope no one is silly enough to suggest that, as this does allow for some growth but ALSO rewards you for growth beyond what would effectively make the content unfun. I also suggested this system in a sense for solo'ing old stuff. Whats more fun, solo'ing the fight in 1 min over and over and over till you get your mount- or solo'ing it for 5 - 7 minutes paying attention to all the mechanics you can and getting a huge payout for it?


This system is saying "sometimes your gear isn't going to make the game FASTER, but it will help you make it more rewarding!". As sometimes faster means worse, actually. Brain dead no fun boss fight. Since it's just a great filter wall, you can also use this system to give jobs their full kits when they sync down cause they'll just add onto the rewards. Which is even better because if you're a high level player coming into old content, you don't normally want anything from it other than to get that roulette bonus-- now you've got encouragement to experience the content AND "earn" more relevant rewards by doing well (using your whole kit).

I think you are misunderstanding me when I am talking about damage curves. At low level, your DPS over the course of a battle stays relatively flat, as you get more and more levels and inevitably get more and more things to shove into the burst, it spikes up massively. This would already be a tough thing to do, considering Paladin had to get reworked because of this very same issue. This causes issue with downtime, whether that be in a fight or between trash packs in a dungeon, with things still ticking down, you have more periods of engagement in your burst window, which means you do more damage, on average anyway.

As for the comment about other games doing it, I don't know how they operate so I cannot comment, however, I'm also not going to just take it at face value. Even in this topic there are opposing views as to whether WoW does it successfully or not.

GW2 and ESO have similar concepts, but eh if you don't want to trust that but I also don't think I need to overly research how one company found out how to fly a plane when I just want this company to have airplanes too lol. Also I understand your concern, I don't misunderstand it. Fundamentally a level 10 kit is DIFFERENT than a level 30, and so on. They have not just simply "higher scaled potency" they have substantial changes. I get that. I am saying it doesn't matter, you can account for that (roughly) but attenuating things to key variables like the ones DPZ2 mention, as long as you're willing to accept a little wonk (like WoW does). You can not like WoW, or ESO, or GW2, which is fine-- but I am saying I would happily accept a little wonk.

The system that might need to be re-tweaked every expansion, and would likely need different balancing concerns between jobs is more sustainable than one that is, put work in and leave alone unless major job changes happen? Sorry, I don't see the logic there.

The suggestion I believe I read from you is to tweak the jobs at lower levels. But each expansion they shift the entire job at higher levels. This means they now have to tweak the job at both ends every expansion. OR... just hit it with some filters that will produce some wonk but will also do things like "not change my kit every time I do something" as some players want to learn their kit, not have parts of it removed that they loved and not practice what is relevant. There are cons of course like a new player is going to see you hitting their poor level 20 spider boss with Bahamut, so I am still not arguing it is perfect.



Yet one algorithmic filter that honestly rarely needs updated, vs every single expansion having to play both ends instead of one end.. One of them sounds a lot easier / sustainable. So I don't see your logic on it either... At least when you're, it appears, arguing a hand tweak of EVERY job is easier than just coming up with a filter that says "I wont be perfect but I am going to squish you all into something that respects the structure of your job, ish".



I disagree with your premise that the algorithm needs tweak every expansion, obviously but it needs stated we are literally opposite here. You think your hand tweak system only needs an occasionally touch and I press doubt because we literally see every expansion they can't / don't do what you're suggesting (they mess with it all for the sake of the end kit), and I am saying do it right once and leave it alone. We're never going to agree on this I think, but I have a hard time seeing how you can't see the logic of designing an algorithm that's job is to wet blanket potency needs stroked more than hand tweaks to each job (and MORE likely every expansion). That said, if they were able to do so successfully, I don't ultimately care how they achieved "interesting gameplay at lower levels" I just really want that. It would be nice to practice the kit that I need to know (max level kit) and not practice the kit that is largely irrelevant so I am bias'd to keeping it intact, but when I do a level 70 dungeon I am not feeling nearly as bad as a level 20.