Please let us keep our abilities on sync down

[Mikey_R]

My immediate if was hired to be lazy is look at what id expected and then set a formula for floors and ceilings and curved in between. For example on burst, your issue is less if we are placing a ceiling. Level 30 has a burst of 500, level 90 has a burst of 900, ceiling the 900 and start to curve the rest of the job within the two bounds so we reach the approximate goal of potency per action / dps. If being lazy this would all be automatic too lol "why is my AOE 106 potency?" "Excel dictated it. :3"

But it is still a burst you don't have at lower levels. this is more impactful in dungeons when you have downtime between pulls, so you have more uptime in your burst. I think we have fundamentally different views on how the low level should be handled, which is fine and it might be a case of agree to disagree on this topic.

On an (almost) unrelated topic, do people like having their burst cut off when things die? Do a trash pull, pop everything, 4 GCDs later, everything is dead. For me, that is wholly unsatisfying. Bosses? die after the 20 seconds burst phase, I mean, you got the burst in, but not a lot else. Great way to practice a rotation isn't it. /s

As for the people who keep saying 'I'm not a dev, that is for the devs to sort out', I just want to say, why not put a bit of thought into suggestions? By thinking about the pros and cons, or thinking about how things might be affected, you might be able to fine tune a suggestion to make it easier/more realistic to achieve. If I asked for the game to be made into an FPS, someone else responded, not possible/realistic for a multitude of reasons, but I came back with, that's for the devs to figure out, it doesn't make the initial claim less silly. This should apply to all aspects of the game.

Now, the above is an extreme example to highlight a point. If we were to bring it down to this topic itself, then yes, I think most would agree that low level is boring and needs improving. However if some of us are coming back with concerns or reasons why we don't think it is realistic, then they need to be addressed and not just dismissed outright. A few of us have even tried to make more realistic suggestions that both improve the low level experience and makes it less jarring for higher level players to get synced down to. this system, once made, then not needing to be touched again, unless something changes fundamentally with the job itself. As opposed to a system that needs to be adjusted every expansion due to new tools and maybe even if potencies change.

[Daralii]

As for the people who keep saying 'I'm not a dev, that is for the devs to sort out', I just want to say, why not put a bit of thought into suggestions? By thinking about the pros and cons, or thinking about how things might be affected, you might be able to fine tune a suggestion to make it easier/more realistic to achieve. If I asked for the game to be made into an FPS, someone else responded, not possible/realistic for a multitude of reasons, but I came back with, that's for the devs to figure out, it doesn't make the initial claim less silly. This should apply to all aspects of the game.

We do not know their backend and development pipeline well enough to know what is and isn't feasible or possible, and we don't know what the future plans for job design are or how set in stone they are. Making very in-depth, specific suggestions is completely pointless even if they were being conveyed to developers, and it's easy to tell from all the extremely detailed character update feedback that's been completely ignored that they aren't.

[technole]

We do not know their backend and development pipeline well enough to know what is and isn't feasible or possible, and we don't know what the future plans for job design are or how set in stone they are. Making very in-depth, specific suggestions is completely pointless even if they were being conveyed to developers, and it's easy to tell from all the extremely detailed character update feedback that's been completely ignored that they aren't.

That's a big one, they are likely in the design phase of what 8.0 job skills will look like. So now if you added a project for downgrades, we have to update every skill almost every two years, or anytime we overhaul a job at every level tier in the database 50/60/70/etc, that's a heck lot of work. Adding permanent steps that don't generate a lot of value in an MMO game where most old content is just on a shelf life timer, is probably not going to be considered.

[Mikey_R]

We do not know their backend and development pipeline well enough to know what is and isn't feasible or possible, and we don't know what the future plans for job design are or how set in stone they are. Making very in-depth, specific suggestions is completely pointless even if they were being conveyed to developers, and it's easy to tell from all the extremely detailed character update feedback that's been completely ignored that they aren't.

No, we don't, that is why we make realistic suggestions based on what we know is possible, or what we think is easy to implement. We know they can adjust potencies on skills based on their base action and traits, which givers you more control over potencies in certain level ranges. I guarantee that encounters in EW and DT will still feel the same as they do now as they have those traits in place, as opposed to ARR, where lower level duties are a joke compared to what they used to be.

We also know they are fully capable of adding new actions and traits wherever they want. There is no reason you couldn't enhance lower level gameplay by adding in old and unused actions and making them a weaker version of what we already have, like Steel Peak now being the Chakra Spender, or Wide Volley turning into Shadowbite.

What we do not know is whether a system can be put into place that can dynamically change potencies based on your current level and the level you are synced to. Or even if you don't want to mess with potencies and ruin balance even more, you don't even know if it is possible to easily change the code to allow you to use higher level actions at a lower level. Not to mention all the other problems that might arise with the system.

Reworking and rebalancing the low levels is a much more realistic goal based on what we know and as I said, this would be something they would have to do once and leave alone, barring any major job reworks like Summoner, as opposed to dynamically changing potencies that will likely need to be looked at every expansion.

[Shougun]

But it is still a burst you don't have at lower levels. this is more impactful in dungeons when you have downtime between pulls, so you have more uptime in your burst. I think we have fundamentally different views on how the low level should be handled, which is fine and it might be a case of agree to disagree on this topic.

Definitely, that is part of why (though not to you specifically) I had mentioned in this thread I imagine the curves will be best every 10 levels. So they're a bit more fine tuned. There are things you have to ensure, like a chain doesn't become less valuable than a non-chain, and then again using ceilings (with every 10 levels being a bit easier to control, and the floor just in case the game tries to give you a 50 potency spell or some hot garbage).

A good system is going to take a bit of thought, and personally I still imagine just setting up a series of rules and having it traverse the skills for me (like reading 1 -> 2 -> 3, and doing a first pass on potencies, if reaching the end and having spare change or excess then going again with a new set of rules). I probably wouldn't hand tune each item, but just ensure (through rules in the algorithm) that you don't get things like 1 -> 2 -> 3 turns into a potency loss compared to spamming one skill. You WANT to retain the structure of the job, so you reward playing the job roughly as designed.

Honestly, more recently, I had shower thoughts on other methods I might introduce instead of the above, like bringing back a break system (and or stagger). Which I am starting to get a little partial too. Where the rate of potency is just dynamically used (there is no per 10 level or even specific modifications to each spell), rather the game just says "right this is the max amount of potency I expect to be reasonable" and filters on the spot- where the excess goes towards break / stagger mechanics. At the point of break / stagger the monster can gain additional damage received modifiers, perhaps drop special rewards*, and may even change mechanics slightly (don't have to spend overly long on it, but like if you break the chimera it might stop casting dragon song but instead may dash to players and cast rams voice in a forward and rear cone).


The break points can also involve intricacies or multiple levels, like you can break a horn through frontal damage, hobble a leg from the side, stand in a specific aoe marker and deal damage to break a crystal shard on the boss (like you stand in the 'bad' aoe, and it registers the damage to that shard IF you dodge the 'bad', so you're dance timing things). Then of course the boss can add their own layers back for a more dynamic fight. These systems SE should feel comfortable working with too, given they've done them to some extent in multiple other games. In FFXIV 1.0 they had this too, but it was general damage (now we're using it for excess lol).

There are a few reasons I think this is interesting. First, in terms of balance- this is a lot easier lol, it's just the great wall of potency filter. Second it plays into a topic below about setting a better fight experience, and last it can help with older content and powerful players as you can reward them even further than the original dungeon designs (and may play a part in variations of gameplay, since when you first did it no one was breaking anything but now... now you are). The filter can be squishy, and its to catch over achieving not to force a weird attrition mechanic (its not there to cause you to hit enrage mechanics). Like some squishy element of it might be a portion of that excess (stagger/break) damage is turned into a DOT on the boss (so their bar starts to get gray health). Especially combining the below concept of reward to time though, where for example TRUST NPCs dynamically change their damage based on your performance (essentially), this makes it so you have a set time frame for that content with the same reward no matter THIS IS NOT THAT. You might end up experiencing more of the fights and having to pay attention to more mechanics, but the reward should represent your efforts (in a reward to time formula) such that you feel it was valuable / worthwhile time.

*Ideally rewards need to be kept relevant in some way, like material for cool weapon / furniture crafts or tokens and tomes (not a lot but hey you get 10 tomes for breaking the Ogre horn and then killing him during his stagger phase!). This way you can go do a Satasha dungeon and be like "maybe some glamour, but also I can work to get some other stuff done too".

Also I still think you could optionally allow players to 'min skill' sync, so if you want to intentionally return with the relevant kit you can. Ultimate, also, will force min skill sync- since that content is supposed to be a 'now and forever' and really if we had the tech for it I would even freeze the entire kit in time. So everyone, sans new jobs, always has the exact same fight tools and its purely player driven skill (and memorization lol).

On an (almost) unrelated topic, do people like having their burst cut off when things die? Do a trash pull, pop everything, 4 GCDs later, everything is dead. For me, that is wholly unsatisfying. Bosses? die after the 20 seconds burst phase, I mean, you got the burst in, but not a lot else. Great way to practice a rotation isn't it. /s

Personally I am always worried about keeping things exactly the same in challenge and / or not rewarding progression (so I 'expect' things to get faster) but I do wish that sometimes we could preserve the fight more but reward more instead. Since rewards as a function of time, you're rewarded more for the easier content (cause it's faster). But rather than making it faster (cause it's easier, sometimes much easier), I'd wish it was just more rewarding but perhaps still similar amount of time / challenge (within reasonable expectations).

For example Challenge Echo might attempt to nerf your character to what a player group of 8 had (or 4), with perhaps further nerfs to defense on avoidable damage (unavoidable damage might still leave you a bit forgiven, since that could lead to issues). Then if you beat this mode which took 10 minutes it would be worth the approximate same amount of rewards that clearing 4 runs in 10 minutes of epic echo would have had. It'd be more fun to farm old content, and you wouldn't feel like a fool for doing it.

I know that wasn't exactly your target topic, but I think of like how hunt monsters scale poorly, or how some bosses you way over ilvl sync, in the same space too and perhaps all this scaling tech we're talking about can be used with "I will reward you more yes, but it will still be some sense of "please pay attention to the mechanics"".

As for the people who keep saying 'I'm not a dev, that is for the devs to sort out', I just want to say, why not put a bit of thought into suggestions? By thinking about the pros and cons, or thinking about how things might be affected, you might be able to fine tune a suggestion to make it easier/more realistic to achieve. If I asked for the game to be made into an FPS, someone else responded, not possible/realistic for a multitude of reasons, but I came back with, that's for the devs to figure out, it doesn't make the initial claim less silly. This should apply to all aspects of the game.

I assume this was a general statement and not specific to me, but yeah I agree. Although I wont bother thinking of exact potencies because I just think if I got to that detail I might as well be telling them to hire me lol. That seems like work adjacent at that point .

I definitely agree given you can find I am probably one of, if not the, biggest wall of text and chocobo turd posters here XD (when it comes to trying to explain a desire / idea of what would be nice).

Now, the above is an extreme example to highlight a point. If we were to bring it down to this topic itself, then yes, I think most would agree that low level is boring and needs improving. However if some of us are coming back with concerns or reasons why we don't think it is realistic, then they need to be addressed and not just dismissed outright. A few of us have even tried to make more realistic suggestions that both improve the low level experience and makes it less jarring for higher level players to get synced down to. this system, once made, then not needing to be touched again, unless something changes fundamentally with the job itself. As opposed to a system that needs to be adjusted every expansion due to new tools and maybe even if potencies change.

I think we generally agree, but disagree on what realistic is. I personally think they're going to mess up hand crafted lower levels shortly after doing it (non-sustained effort), and that it will take more work to hand craft those changes rather than something dynamic. Such that while I KNOW an automated system wont be perfect I think it will be much easier to institute and also much easier to maintain, and ultimately just be more consistent experience and allow players to play the character that they have progressed. However, lets say both ideas are possible and there is no issue on either (SE isn't giving us a monkey paw or some sort of cost choice).. then to me I don't care which one is picked. If it feels better, it feels better!

[Mikey_R]

Honestly, more recently, I had shower thoughts on other methods I might introduce instead of the above, like bringing back a break system (and or stagger). Which I am starting to get a little partial too. Where the rate of potency is just dynamically used (there is no per 10 level or even specific modifications to each spell), rather the game just says "right this is the max amount of potency I expect to be reasonable" and filters on the spot- where the excess goes towards break / stagger mechanics. At the point of break / stagger the monster can gain additional damage received modifiers, perhaps drop special rewards*, and may even change mechanics slightly (don't have to spend overly long on it, but like if you break the chimera it might stop casting dragon song but instead may dash to players and cast rams voice in a forward and rear cone).

If you can get extra potency from staggering/breaking, it is the same issue, just laid out differently.

However, adjusting fight mechanics based on how yo interact with the boss is something I have expressed in the past, mainly by stunning/interrupting casts to change their properties, but this could also be extended to changing several moves. But these sorts of mechanics shouldn't just be limited to just when you are synced down.

I assume this was a general statement and not specific to me, but yeah I agree. Although I wont bother thinking of exact potencies because I just think if I got to that detail I might as well be telling them to hire me lol. That seems like work adjacent at that point .

I don't think finding exact potencies are needed, but a thought on if changes were made, how will it affect things in general shouldn't be too much to ask. In the case of jobs, going from more sustained jobs, where the burst potential is low, compared to level 100 where the burst potential is very high. You have 2 different damage curves and trying to conform one to the other based on content just isn't going to be easy. The only reason I initially pointed out potencies was to highlight the issue that you cannot just take what we have and assume it will be fine.

[Shougun]

If you can get extra potency from staggering/breaking, it is the same issue, just laid out differently.

However, adjusting fight mechanics based on how yo interact with the boss is something I have expressed in the past, mainly by stunning/interrupting casts to change their properties, but this could also be extended to changing several moves. But these sorts of mechanics shouldn't just be limited to just when you are synced down.



I don't think finding exact potencies are needed, but a thought on if changes were made, how will it affect things in general shouldn't be too much to ask. In the case of jobs, going from more sustained jobs, where the burst potential is low, compared to level 100 where the burst potential is very high. You have 2 different damage curves and trying to conform one to the other based on content just isn't going to be easy. The only reason I initially pointed out potencies was to highlight the issue that you cannot just take what we have and assume it will be fine.

Eh if they stagger for bonus damage we're assuming we've done what I said and brought runaway scaling down a little, so to be honest no. You definitely don't have that issue. Since you're behind the runaway that we already have (that idea if you read had multiple reasons, one of which was to preserve an interesting content and not turn them into 15 second jokes). So, it's better than before actually.


I think you're just having trouble imagining a job curved down and others are not. I understand you worry that It is not just the same kit with more potency (the kit is 'different' at different levels), but this issue has already been solved by other MMOs, and as I've been saying you will pass over the kit multiple times to clamp it down in different spots so that these are roughly in line. You will have situations where your big burst that was 1k potency is now 350 (where another spell that was normally 400 potency is 325) which might sound funny, but this stuff has been done. A freebie weave skill may be hit even harder (depending on what the low levels expectations are, as you have said some jobs don't have all that at low levels). The only real thing we won't capture for is features, we're going to ignore if scholar can group combat sprint or someone can raise, while their damage is brought down a lot we'll leave the features.


Also I've seen you mention low levels curve a few times and I don't know why because in our situation we are not doing time walking. The low levels are just coming in to do the content as is, unlike time walking we are only poking high levels. We are only dampening.. we don't need to boost.


We especially don't have an issue if we just do the great filter wall (wrapped in stagger/break), because who cares what your kit says at that point. It just reads the incoming amount lol.


Regardless of how hard balancing a curve (not stagger system), I still think that will be much easier and sustainable than hand tweaks to all jobs, but I don't care how they make earlier levels feel better if the end result is it feels better.

[Mikey_R]

Eh if they stagger for bonus damage we're assuming we've done what I said and brought runaway scaling down a little, so to be honest no. You definitely don't have that issue. Since you're behind the runaway that we already have (that idea if you read had multiple reasons, one of which was to preserve an interesting content and not turn them into 15 second jokes). So, it's better than before actually.

If staggering increases the damage you do, you either do more damage than intended, or, you you have another variable to balance around, one which necessarily has to change depending on level.

I think you're just having trouble imagining a job curved down and others are not....

Also I've seen you mention low levels curve a few times and I don't know why because in our situation we are not doing time walking. The low levels are just coming in to do the content as is, unlike time walking we are only poking high levels. We are only dampening.. we don't need to boost.

I think you are misunderstanding me when I am talking about damage curves. At low level, your DPS over the course of a battle stays relatively flat, as you get more and more levels and inevitably get more and more things to shove into the burst, it spikes up massively. This would already be a tough thing to do, considering Paladin had to get reworked because of this very same issue. This causes issue with downtime, whether that be in a fight or between trash packs in a dungeon, with things still ticking down, you have more periods of engagement in your burst window, which means you do more damage, on average anyway.

As for the comment about other games doing it, I don't know how they operate so I cannot comment, however, I'm also not going to just take it at face value. Even in this topic there are opposing views as to whether WoW does it successfully or not.

Regardless of how hard balancing a curve (not stagger system), I still think that will be much easier and sustainable than hand tweaks to all jobs, but I don't care how they make earlier levels feel better if the end result is it feels better.

The system that might need to be re-tweaked every expansion, and would likely need different balancing concerns between jobs is more sustainable than one that is, put work in and leave alone unless major job changes happen? Sorry, I don't see the logic there.

If that would be the case yes, Cause I don't care about if I do 15 or 10 dps in sastasha. it is so damn low, the dungeon is so damn fast and you skip every major mechanic already. Yes I absolutely accept it if I am able to press my buttons I have at lvl 100.

Even assuming you never complete your burst in full before things die?

[Deniza]

Even assuming you never complete your burst in full before things die?

Well, yes, just take the burst to the next mob group, Buffs last long enough.

[Shougun]

If staggering increases the damage you do, you either do more damage than intended, or, you you have another variable to balance around, one which necessarily has to change depending on level.

I think you misunderstood that one. It's a /separate/ idea. So read it in isolation. In case the previous text was not straight forward here is a different telling of it:


Stagger / break / skill play system:


- Take the expected amount of time and damage done in that content that would lead to an interesting fight. Great, store this. They might not have 'that' variable done, but I would be insanely bemused if they didn't have any variable that could construct that (like I'm sure someone has an excel of expectations, DPZ2 like variables already mentioned).

- Filter damage against this system, express those excess damage in the new systems. Do not apply it like regular damage. This fundamentally means that the fights are not faster. ilvl creep is now being siphoned out, or a job that came in late and isn't as well balanced, is being managed.

- Express that excess damage in greater rewards and variations in the fight. This CAN (does not have) to be temporary stagger gauges that return some of the acceleration that you previously experienced (like a damage multiplier, as some FF games have done stagger, or as I suggested gray health DOTs that apply a portion of the excess back). Read strongly the word SOME.


Fundamentally the fights will be more similar to their intended design, you will be seeing more of the fights- even if you're MAX ilvl. However, you will also be getting basically little missions and different ways to interact with the boss in best case scenarios. In worst case scenarios its just little rewards you're breaking off the boss by over preforming.



This means that while the dungeon PRE system was faster the dungeon POST system is equally if not more rewarding but will take MORE time / skill. Because it is siphoning off some of that excess and turning into reward structures.


The filter reads incoming damage so it doesn't really care who or what (much more general filter than the other conversation about job curves, this one is just a great filter wall), making it technically easier than running passes over all the jobs in something that is attempting to keep the structure the same. This system can also be slapped onto hunts and other stuff, so they're less vapor lol.


That whole thing is a entirely new separate concept to the curves we've been talking about. This is not min ilvl and I hope no one is silly enough to suggest that, as this does allow for some growth but ALSO rewards you for growth beyond what would effectively make the content unfun. I also suggested this system in a sense for solo'ing old stuff. Whats more fun, solo'ing the fight in 1 min over and over and over till you get your mount- or solo'ing it for 5 - 7 minutes paying attention to all the mechanics you can and getting a huge payout for it?


This system is saying "sometimes your gear isn't going to make the game FASTER, but it will help you make it more rewarding!". As sometimes faster means worse, actually. Brain dead no fun boss fight. Since it's just a great filter wall, you can also use this system to give jobs their full kits when they sync down cause they'll just add onto the rewards. Which is even better because if you're a high level player coming into old content, you don't normally want anything from it other than to get that roulette bonus-- now you've got encouragement to experience the content AND "earn" more relevant rewards by doing well (using your whole kit).

I think you are misunderstanding me when I am talking about damage curves. At low level, your DPS over the course of a battle stays relatively flat, as you get more and more levels and inevitably get more and more things to shove into the burst, it spikes up massively. This would already be a tough thing to do, considering Paladin had to get reworked because of this very same issue. This causes issue with downtime, whether that be in a fight or between trash packs in a dungeon, with things still ticking down, you have more periods of engagement in your burst window, which means you do more damage, on average anyway.

As for the comment about other games doing it, I don't know how they operate so I cannot comment, however, I'm also not going to just take it at face value. Even in this topic there are opposing views as to whether WoW does it successfully or not.

GW2 and ESO have similar concepts, but eh if you don't want to trust that but I also don't think I need to overly research how one company found out how to fly a plane when I just want this company to have airplanes too lol. Also I understand your concern, I don't misunderstand it. Fundamentally a level 10 kit is DIFFERENT than a level 30, and so on. They have not just simply "higher scaled potency" they have substantial changes. I get that. I am saying it doesn't matter, you can account for that (roughly) but attenuating things to key variables like the ones DPZ2 mention, as long as you're willing to accept a little wonk (like WoW does). You can not like WoW, or ESO, or GW2, which is fine-- but I am saying I would happily accept a little wonk.

The system that might need to be re-tweaked every expansion, and would likely need different balancing concerns between jobs is more sustainable than one that is, put work in and leave alone unless major job changes happen? Sorry, I don't see the logic there.

The suggestion I believe I read from you is to tweak the jobs at lower levels. But each expansion they shift the entire job at higher levels. This means they now have to tweak the job at both ends every expansion. OR... just hit it with some filters that will produce some wonk but will also do things like "not change my kit every time I do something" as some players want to learn their kit, not have parts of it removed that they loved and not practice what is relevant. There are cons of course like a new player is going to see you hitting their poor level 20 spider boss with Bahamut, so I am still not arguing it is perfect.



Yet one algorithmic filter that honestly rarely needs updated, vs every single expansion having to play both ends instead of one end.. One of them sounds a lot easier / sustainable. So I don't see your logic on it either... At least when you're, it appears, arguing a hand tweak of EVERY job is easier than just coming up with a filter that says "I wont be perfect but I am going to squish you all into something that respects the structure of your job, ish".



I disagree with your premise that the algorithm needs tweak every expansion, obviously but it needs stated we are literally opposite here. You think your hand tweak system only needs an occasionally touch and I press doubt because we literally see every expansion they can't / don't do what you're suggesting (they mess with it all for the sake of the end kit), and I am saying do it right once and leave it alone. We're never going to agree on this I think, but I have a hard time seeing how you can't see the logic of designing an algorithm that's job is to wet blanket potency needs stroked more than hand tweaks to each job (and MORE likely every expansion). That said, if they were able to do so successfully, I don't ultimately care how they achieved "interesting gameplay at lower levels" I just really want that. It would be nice to practice the kit that I need to know (max level kit) and not practice the kit that is largely irrelevant so I am bias'd to keeping it intact, but when I do a level 70 dungeon I am not feeling nearly as bad as a level 20.