The issue with Dawntrail and importance of 8.0

[ovIm]

The vast majority of players don't leave steam reviews, don't write articles, don't go the FFXIV reddit, don't produce YouTube videos. This is what's known as a vocal minority.

Sure, but there are still a lot of people that write reviews. If you consider how statistics work, and how geniunely positive all reviews were before dawntrail, you have to admit that FFXIV, which had a previously very favorable user score, now does not have that anymore. in fact, rougly half of the people writing reviews are in dislike of the current expansion, where previously, this was more in the ballpark of 10%.
(Metacritic User Score Shadowbringers: 9.1 based on 1040 ratings. Endwalker 9.0 based on 1669 ratings. Dawntrail 5.3 based on 1073 ratings)
About as many people ranked Shadowbringers as they did Dawntrail, and in Shadowbringers, they were mostly favorable. All sources point to you not acknowledging the facts.

look, its okay to like Dawntrail. Truly. If you enjoyed it, that is fine.
But brushing all these voices aside because they criticize a product you enjoy, that's erasing their voices and their relevance, and that's closing your eyes from the truth.

[Striker44]

Sure, but there are still a lot of people that write reviews. If you consider how statistics work, and how geniunely positive all reviews were before dawntrail, you have to admit that FFXIV, which had a previously very favorable user score, now does not have that anymore. in fact, rougly half of the people writing reviews are in dislike of the current expansion, where previously, this was more in the ballpark of 10%.

The question is who are the people most likely to write the reviews. They're not a random sample of the population. There is most certainly a specific subset of the gaming population that is significantly more likely to inhabit Reddit, post reviews, etc.. They do not represent anywhere near a majority of gamers, but they are by far the "loudest" voices. DT was most definitely not designed for them, so it doesn't surprise me to see the voluntary sample that is all "reviews" like this are is different than in past expansions. There's also a reason voluntary samples are known throughout the actual statistics community as being the most unreliable type.

It is just as much (if not significantly moreso) closing your eyes to the truth when you do the same exact thing and brush aside any voices that praise or enjoy a product you personally dislike. That's also erasing their voices and their relevance, and when you fail to consider on top of that how large that population may be in comparison...well, it explains why this place remains such an echo chamber of negativity and frustration as people work themselves up over the dev team "ignoring" them, when all that's really happening is they're listening to the much larger group of players that aren't here.

[Supersnow845]

The question is who are the people most likely to write the reviews. They're not a random sample of the population. There is most certainly a specific subset of the gaming population that is significantly more likely to inhabit Reddit, post reviews, etc.. They do not represent anywhere near a majority of gamers, but they are by far the "loudest" voices. DT was most definitely not designed for them, so it doesn't surprise me to see the voluntary sample that is all "reviews" like this are is different than in past expansions. There's also a reason voluntary samples are known throughout the actual statistics community as being the most unreliable type.

It is just as much (if not significantly moreso) closing your eyes to the truth when you do the same exact thing and brush aside any voices that praise or enjoy a product you personally dislike. That's also erasing their voices and their relevance, and when you fail to consider on top of that how large that population may be in comparison...well, it explains why this place remains such an echo chamber of negativity and frustration as people work themselves up over the dev team "ignoring" them, when all that's really happening is they're listening to the much larger group of players that aren't here.

Yeah the collapsing population is definitely indicative of strikers “MAH MAJORATAH” being catered to

[ovIm]

The question is who are the people most likely to write the reviews. They're not a random sample of the population.

That is, for all intends and purposes, irrelevant when you compare it to how previous expansions were rated by the customers. If Dawntrail was as good as previous expansions, the same amount of people would still praise the expansion. Just checking ShB and DT, metacritic had about the same amount of people give their opinion on it. If DT was so loved by the majority, then it would show in how the expansion was received.

It is just as much (if not significantly moreso) closing your eyes to the truth when you do the same exact thing and brush aside any voices that praise or enjoy a product you personally dislike. That's also erasing their voices and their relevance, and when you fail to consider on top of that how large that population may be in comparison...well, it explains why this place remains such an echo chamber of negativity and frustration as people work themselves up over the dev team "ignoring" them, when all that's really happening is they're listening to the much larger group of players that aren't here.

This is a forum. Posting in a forum means that any idea you put up will be analyzed, dissected, and possibly criticized. That is the nature of how places like these operate. Any post here can be challenged in one way or another. And if you go ahead to say that ~50% of the players liking the product are a vast majority, then that opinion will most certainly be challenged. This is not voice erasure, this is forum discourse.

As I said previously - its okay if you liked Dawntrail. More power to you. But liking something does not mean you cannot allow criticism of said thing.

[Exmo]

As I said previously - its okay if you liked Dawntrail. More power to you. But liking something does not mean you cannot allow criticism of said thing.

The same is true to those who like criticisms of DT, who narrativize a population decline into a disastrous population collapse, who consider the rise in negative steam reviews to not be fueled by the well known portion of bigots in the community. It would be a mistake to take the latter at face value. Much of the criticisms of DT on this forum (not all, much) is not genuine. Much of it is people being weird and unreasonable, people making stuff up, people being incapable of interacting with the text, people being unable to escape their expectations. It should be perfectly acceptable for others to criticize these opinions and see them as invalid, even if you don't agree with those criticisms. And yet, we've seen here people responding weirdly to those who contravene the echo in this chamber - either by incoherently frothing at the mouth like someone else in this thread, or like you have done by monologuing about how thou doth shield thine eyes from the truth. If like you said people here were engaging in open discourse in good faith, they would not respond with such hostility to opinions counter to their own, they would be able to respond without getting hostile or mocking those they disagree with. The fact that the latter behavior is rare here is indicative of a bad atmosphere.

[Supersnow845]

The same is true to those who dislike criticisms of DT, who narrativize a population decline into a disastrous population collapse, who consider the rise in negative steam reviews to not be fueled by the well known portion of bigots in the community. It would be a mistake to take the latter at face value. Much of the criticisms of DT on this forum (not all, much) is not genuine. Much of it is people being weird and unreasonable, people making stuff up, people being incapable of interacting with the text, people being unable to escape their expectations. It should be perfectly acceptable for others to criticize these opinions and see them as invalid, even if you don't agree with those criticisms. And yet, we've seen here people responding weirdly to those who contravene the echo in this chamber - either by incoherently frothing at the mouth like someone else in this thread, or like you have done by monologuing about how thou doth shield thine eyes from the truth. If like you said people here were engaging in open discourse in good faith, they would not respond with such hostility to opinions counter to their own, they would be able to respond without getting hostile or mocking those they disagree with. The fact that the latter behavior is rare here is indicative of a bad atmosphere.

Your first post on this thread was saying “nah DT was actually good”

Like genuinely what do you expect people to calmly analyse about that?

You haven’t defended your stance nor have you opted to do any sort of discussion you are asking others to calmly do with you

You basically said “nah DT good actually” then went into a silent majority fallacy then asked people to respect your minority on the forums opinion

[Exmo]

Your first post on this thread was saying “nah DT was actually good”

Like genuinely what do you expect people to calmly analyse about that?

You haven’t defended your stance nor have you opted to do any sort of discussion you are asking others to calmly do with you

You basically said “nah DT good actually” then went into a silent majority fallacy then asked people to respect your minority on the forums opinion

I didn't ask anyone to calmly analyse my post or respect my opinion. I simply said "DT was great" and some people went WILD. And when I point out how weird they behave they get more and more upitty. As in, people are trying to prove this place isn't an echo chamber by drowning out differing opinions and shunning dissenters. (And all this because someone dredged posts from different threads and responded to them here in an off topic way, which I think is not normal behavior.)

Btw it's not a fallacy to say the vast majority of players are not on these forums nor post reviews online. You may believe it's not true but that does not make it a fallacy.

[ovIm]

The same is true to those who dislike criticisms of DT, who narrativize a population decline into a disastrous population collapse, who consider the rise in negative steam reviews to not be fueled by the well known portion of bigots in the community. It would be a mistake to take the latter at face value. Much of the criticisms of DT on this forum (not all, much) is not genuine. ]Much of it is people being weird and unreasonable, people making stuff up, people being incapable of interacting with the text, people being unable to escape their expectations.

That's false. The good criticisms are just not to your liking, just like my posts. I have read your other posts, you are choosing to ignore the proper, in depth posts. That is your choice. But that is still you ignoring whats in front of your very eyes.

It should be perfectly acceptable for others to criticize these opinions and see them as invalid, even if you don't agree with those criticisms. And yet, we've seen here people responding weirdly to those who contravene the echo in this chamber - either by incoherently frothing at the mouth like someone else in this thread, or like you have done by monologuing about how thou doth shield thine eyes from the truth. If like you said people here were engaging in open discourse in good faith, they would not respond with such hostility to opinions counter to their own, they would be able to respond without getting hostile or mocking those they disagree with. The fact that the latter behavior is rare here is indicative of a bad atmosphere.

And instead of even trying to prove me wrong, or to give better factual data as to why my assessment of the reviews of Dawntrail are something to be considered in earnest, you are monologing and ranting about how it is all oh so unfair and people are out to get you, being as hostile and mocking as you are to them. But that is okay, holier than thou me forgives you, and will take you as serious as you deserve to in the future.

[Exmo]

you are choosing to ignore the proper, in depth posts

I'm not ignoring good posts. Either I haven't seen them, or posts you think are good I think are bad. Feel free to link an example of something you thought was good. I won't respond in depth if I think it's bad but I can tell you if I hadn't seen it before and it's valid.

Otherwise, here's the thing. You have repeatedly tried to admonish me by describing what you think my intent is - that I chose to ignore something, for example. But you can't read my mind, you're only guessing what my intent is, and you're guesses are continuously framed as negative. On the other hand, I'm describing your behavior and how it comes across as insulting and mocking. For example, you can make most of the points you've been making without tossing in insults. Given how you're still doing it, I'm inclined to think the insults are part of your point - the goal isn't to discuss, the goal is to mock. I'll be honest, it's no skin off my neck, the insults don't affect me, but as I said before, it creates a bad atmosphere here. I have no intention of pretending we can have a conversation in good faith about the merits of DT, etc. in this atmosphere without it being a waste of time. I know full well exhaustion is a tactic used by bad faith actors online to shut down conversation, so I'm not willing to get hard numbers for you on how many steam reviews and reddit posts there are in comparison to the active player count (something like 4k vs 1 million btw).

Btw, you described me as ranting. You've mistaken my tone. As I said before I think how some of you are behaving is hilarious, because it proves the point you're trying to refute.

Lastly, Dawntrail is great. It's def not perfect but overall I had a good time with it and enjoyed it a lot. I find much of the writing to be compelling. But I'm probably approaching it with a different perspective than many other people. That's fine though, right?

[Exmo]

so I'm not willing to get hard numbers for you on how many steam reviews and reddit posts there are in comparison to the active player count (something like 4k vs 1 million btw).

For fun I did a super quick check for steam reviews of FFXIV

DT = 4300 reviews, slightly less than half liked it (ie 2k)
EW = 1300 reviews, most liked it
ShB = 800 reviews, most liked it

Don't you think it's odd how the count for DT is three times more than that of EW? That's such a suspicious uptick.

The fact that DT has double the number of positive reviews as EW is also notable and funny, as if people go out of their way to counter negative reviews which go out of their way to counter positive reviews. This whole thing seems manufactured as sin. I don't know how anyone can look at the state of this and think it's organic.