Don't do chaotic raid again

[Bonoki]

Isn't it ironic? We asked for more challenging 24-man content for years, and now that SE has delivered, people are complaining that it’s not accessible enough for casual players. This feels like moving the goalposts—if we want challenging content, it can’t always cater to everyone. Isn’t the whole point of asking for difficulty to push ourselves beyond the usual? And yet, we wonder why the game is constantly dumbed down.

[remiff]

Isn't it ironic? We asked for more challenging 24-man content for years, and now that SE has delivered, people are complaining that it’s not accessible enough for casual players. This feels like moving the goalposts—if we want challenging content, it can’t always cater to everyone. Isn’t the whole point of asking for difficulty to push ourselves beyond the usual? And yet, we wonder why the game is constantly dumbed down.

There’s absolutely no issue with introducing challenging 24-man content.
The problem is that it targets a minority of players, meaning it will quickly die off, and there’s no alternative.
If there were a version of the fight designed to cater to a broader majority of players, it would be a different story.

The issue is that they don’t provide content with a medium level of challenge.
It’s either too easy, or it’s extreme or savage, and they know very well that this type of content doesn’t work. Be it criterion dungeons or similar content, it has never worked and never will.

So why not adapt content to have a version accessible to a broader majority of players instead of once again creating niche content? Especially when the game has been experiencing a drought of content with good replayability and casual++ appeal since Endwalker.

[MrJPtheAssassin]

There’s absolutely no issue with introducing challenging 24-man content.
The problem is that it targets a minority of players, meaning it will quickly die off, and there’s no alternative.
If there were a version of the fight designed to cater to a broader majority of players, it would be a different story.

The issue is that they don’t provide content with a medium level of challenge.
It’s either too easy, or it’s extreme or savage, and they know very well that this type of content doesn’t work. Be it criterion dungeons or similar content, it has never worked and never will.

So why not adapt content to have a version accessible to a broader majority of players instead of once again creating niche content? Especially when the game has been experiencing a drought of content with good replayability and casual++ appeal since Endwalker.

Another issue is that there rewards most of casual players want aka the new hairstyle. Why lock glam items and hairstyles behind content that is for minority of players and will die off very quicky. I think the gear and the mount you get from the 24 man savage is enough of reward for those who want to do it...I don't see why the hairstyle is even in there.

[Kaurhz]

Another issue is that there rewards most of casual players want aka the new hairstyle. Why lock glam items and hairstyles behind content that is for minority of players and will die off very quicky. I think the gear and the mount you get from the 24 man savage is enough of reward for those who want to do it...I don't see why the hairstyle is even in there.

IMO,

I think this decision stems from the criticisms that people threw at V&C dungeons. Granted, different content, but the problem can still carry over, so I think they've just wanted to throw everything inc., the kitchen sink at it to try and incentivize completion rates.

I think cosmetic related rewards exclusively in upper content is generally a bad move because you end up over-incentivizing, which just attracts a lot of players that aren't necessarily following a natural course of progression. You end up with a mix of people that want the reward, but aren't necessarily prepared, mixed in with people that may want it, and are prepared, or are just there for a challenge, and this issue is just exacerbated so much when there's 24 people to account for.

[ViinaS]

IMO,

I think this decision stems from the criticisms that people threw at V&C dungeons. Granted, different content, but the problem can still carry over, so I think they've just wanted to throw everything inc., the kitchen sink at it to try and incentivize completion rates.

I think cosmetic related rewards exclusively in upper content is generally a bad move because you end up over-incentivizing, which just attracts a lot of players that aren't necessarily following a natural course of progression. You end up with a mix of people that want the reward, but aren't necessarily prepared, mixed in with people that may want it, and are prepared, or are just there for a challenge, and this issue is just exacerbated so much when there's 24 people to account for.

And that's the major issue imo.
This content rewards a desireable mount, desireable glam, hats that actually work on Viera and a desireable hairstyle.
All that after a drought in all those categories, cause lets be honest, the AlliRaid gear is only pleasant to look at and exciting for FFXI fans. At least to me it's super boring.

Yet all those things that attract many people, casuals too, are locked behind something harder than savage (due to 24 people needing to sign up, go in, stay for prog, content being harder than EX and not fck up / be managed).
Meanwhile V&C dungeon rewards were easy to prog towards, due to 4 people, but so lackluster that many people didn't do them.
I still don't have a single exquisite Weapon except my first one due to that.

So yeah. I fully expect Chaotic to tank hard, be relegated to Discord-only group finding and people being angry those rewards are very unaccessible to most.
And all that after the worst content drought we have seen in a very long time... and the first one immedietaly after an expansion launch.

[Menriq]

There’s absolutely no issue with introducing challenging 24-man content.
The problem is that it targets a minority of players, meaning it will quickly die off, and there’s no alternative.
If there were a version of the fight designed to cater to a broader majority of players, it would be a different story.

The issue is that they don’t provide content with a medium level of challenge.
It’s either too easy, or it’s extreme or savage, and they know very well that this type of content doesn’t work. Be it criterion dungeons or similar content, it has never worked and never will.

So why not adapt content to have a version accessible to a broader majority of players instead of once again creating niche content? Especially when the game has been experiencing a drought of content with good replayability and casual++ appeal since Endwalker.

The problem here is everyone's definition of challenging is different. Some might say Savage is medium level. Others might say EX is medium level. It will always be subjective in that nature.

[AllenThyl]

If there were a version of the fight designed to cater to a broader majority of players, it would be a different story.

There is, it's called "Cloud of Darkness" in the duty "World of Darkness" as well as "Eden's Promise: Umbra". Let's cut to the chase here, it's not about the fight. It's never about the fight. It's only ever about the rewards.

The issue is that they don’t provide content with a medium level of challenge.

This fight IS the medium challenge. It has a handful of mechanics, the mechanics need to be respected for the most part, there are quite a few opportunities to recover when only some people fail a mechanic, a portion of the mechanics can be solved by following a danger dorito, and the mechanics are repeating after half the fight and not escalating further. If the "medium level of challenge" doesn't involve at least semi-properly doing damage, semi-properly doing mitigations, semi-properly doing healing, and semi-properly doing positions / mechanics, what about it would even be the "medium challenge"?

[remiff]

There is, it's called "Cloud of Darkness" in the duty "World of Darkness" as well as "Eden's Promise: Umbra". Let's cut to the chase here, it's not about the fight. It's never about the fight. It's only ever about the rewards.



This fight IS the medium challenge. It has a handful of mechanics, the mechanics need to be respected for the most part, there are quite a few opportunities to recover when only some people fail a mechanic, a portion of the mechanics can be solved by following a danger dorito, and the mechanics are repeating after half the fight and not escalating further. If the "medium level of challenge" doesn't involve at least semi-properly doing damage, semi-properly doing mitigations, semi-properly doing healing, and semi-properly doing positions / mechanics, what about it would even be the "medium challenge"?

No, this fight is not a medium-level challenge.

Even the devs admitted it is savage-level content.
Furthermore, only players who regularly engage in savage or ultimate content would consider it a medium challenge because they already have enough skill and knowledge of the mechanics—mechanics that are often reused in FFXIV—to say it feels midcore to them.

However, for people who primarily play normal content, this will be far more than a challenge.
Simply finding 24 people in the future will be an even greater challenge, as this content is bound to become a wasteland.

I never said they shouldn't create difficult 24-player content, just that this is far too difficult to motivate enough players to engage with it.
Even in the future, it will end up like Criterion dungeons: completely dead.

[LibitIncarne]

This fight IS the medium challenge. It has a handful of mechanics, the mechanics need to be respected for the most part, there are quite a few opportunities to recover when only some people fail a mechanic, a portion of the mechanics can be solved by following a danger dorito, and the mechanics are repeating after half the fight and not escalating further. If the "medium level of challenge" doesn't involve at least semi-properly doing damage, semi-properly doing mitigations, semi-properly doing healing, and semi-properly doing positions / mechanics, what about it would even be the "medium challenge"?

No, you're a masochist. The Baldesion Arsenal, Castrum Lacus Litore, Delubrum Reginae, and The Dalriada are medium-challenging content and actually scale down if you go with the half the max that they allow you to do. Delubrum Reginae (Savage) is a bit below Savage in terms of difficulty with escalating mechanics, but you can be carried if you aren't completely incompetent and the Zadnor lost actions make it bearable.

This is savage-tier difficulty, it has body checks and personal responsibility mechanics that hurt other players with damage downs and doom if you mess them up, something that's worse in 24-man content than 4 or 8-man.