7.1 Dragoon Changes Complaints

[HikariKurosawa]

Objectively speaking, this job is super unfun to play after the patch had dropped

Fun itself is a subjective concept. I don't want to play reaper lol, I like the job fantasy of dragoon and the animations. You just like mashing lots of buttons fast. Since you're suggesting me to play another job for gameplay, this means you must have no attachment to the fantasy of dragoon. So just play a different job yourself. Dragoon has always been one of the simpler melee jobs in the game. Play ninja, play samurai, play something else yourself.

It's okay to give feedback, just recognize that you're stating subjective positions and don't try to argue with other people for expressing their subjective opinions.

There's no need to try to struggle for an echo chamber, it's not happening. State your case and be confident in it, stop yammering about the validity of differing opinions.

I get that you feel a certain way, speak for yourself.

The forums being a place for feedback statement goes both ways. I have never tried to invalidate your opinions or perspective, I just say that I like the way the game has changed and you decide that's a reason to argue. I explain why I like it, and you try to silence my perspective for what? Because you want an echo chamber. It's not happening lol. Get over it and move on.

Even if the majority of people were celebrating the changes and there was only a minority of people going against them, I wouldn't try to censor the opinions of the people who dislike them. It's okay to express your feedback. Go ahead with it. Stop crying over other people enjoying change.

[brinn12]

You're doing the same as the people you're criticizing, though. You think it's objective that these questions are subjective. It's not objective. They already gave you the arguments as to why you are wrong, yet you ignored them. It's fine. Just know you're not doing any different.

Not only are they objective, it's something the developers usually only realize when it's too late. Pushing away long-time MMO players is never a good decision.

They are making the game unfun, slowly removing all of the things the old school players liked. And replacing it with predictable, easy and less creative content. Job design is only the tip of the iceberg. While fun is subjective, what matters to the developers is the best decision for the game.

[HikariKurosawa]

You're doing the same as the people you're criticizing, though. You think it's objective that these questions are subjective. It's not objective. They already gave you the arguments as to why you are wrong, yet you ignored them. It's fine. Just know you're not doing any different.

Not only are they objective, it's something the developers usually only realize when it's too late. Pushing away long-time MMO players is never a good decision.

They are making the game unfun, slowly removing all of the things the old school players liked. And replacing it with predictable, easy and less creative content. Job design is only the tip of the iceberg. While fun is subjective, what matters to the developers is the best decision for the game.

You can't just arbitrarily make subjective opinions objective rofl. Yes, I get that your feelings are real. They're still subject to your own preferences and opinions.

I've never done the same thing the people I am criticizing are doing though. You should read my language better. Why would I consider their opinions? It's not rocket science, I understand exactly where you are all coming from, I just don't see eye to eye and don't want what you want. I understand why the devs make the decisions they are making, and I appreciate them.

Everything else you say is just you pushing your own agenda, so what's the point in me as an individual taking it seriously? I don't want what you want, at the end of the day it's up to the devs, but as it is going, I support the direction the devs are pushing the game in.

If they go with what you want, that's fine. I will just unsubscribe and play something else. I'm easy come easy go. I think you should learn from me, if you want to be happy and make a difference in the game direction. Vote with your wallet.

Honestly though, I don't think they want the old school players around anymore. For several expansions all you have been doing is complaining and doomsaying about the direction of the game. Maybe they are trying to push this negative part of the community away. There are tons of people who are happy with the game and the way it is going. Maybe you're just not wanted here anymore. If you don't like what you're buying, stop buying it. Simple concept. If you're struggling with addiction, get help.

[brinn12]

I'm not making anything, they are objective in my opinion. Again, you fail to recognize whether I'm making anything or not is a matter of opinion. You're doing what you're criticizing other people for.

Fun is subjective, yes. Some people don't even play MMOs to begin with, which is totally fair. But that FFXIV is slowly pushing away old school players by making the game dull to them is objective. That this is bad, and other MMOs at some point regret doing this is also objective. If you don't bring in enough players, you're going to lose money.

It's very hard to convince this new generation to play MMORPGs. Action, single player games and gachas are much more appealing to teenagers. You definitely don't want to lose people, and it is possible to make a game for both groups. FFXIV MSQ and gearing is always designed with the casual community in mind. It's also very easy to get into raiding, once you get to level cap. Strongest crafted gear is always relevant. Now the developers are overdoing this design, losing hardcore players and even midcore, who want to grind something that's not a useless achievement like Hoarder. And with MSQ having such a terrible reception, they start losing casual players as well.

"Tons of people are happy" >>> I don't think you are aware that Dawntrail is the worst received expansion in such a long time, maybe the worst of all time. The situation is so bad FFXIV started losing more casual players, even though it was always designed around these people. It's such cheap quality that Yoshi-P had to apologize multiple times in public, promising changes in content.

[HeavenlyArmed]

snip

I have never once in this conversation come at you with anything subjective. You claimed that rotations were getting more and more complicated over time, that the game itself was getting more and more complicated over time, and that Dragoon was getting more and more busy over time. I demonstrated with examples why none of those things are true. What is subjective is our preferences. Yes, you have made clear you prefer the game being very simple, and I and everyone else in this thread have made clear that we prefer having at least some level of complexity. We're all allowed to have those preferences. But in service of defending your preferences you have constantly made objectively untrue claims about the game and about Dragoon. Also, you have absolutely tried to invalidate other people's opinions. Since you forgot, here are some examples of when you did that in both this and the other DRG threads.

I'm just glad most of you are never going to be involved in creating games.

Getting a bit contrived now aren't you?

This thread has to be satire, or you just wanted to show off your character's glam during cool poses with your ultimate weapon.

There are like 10-20 people trying to create an echo chamber of disapproval in this thread. Most people who are happy about the game spend their free time playing it, not whinging on the forums.

I agree with the devs, not the crybabies on the forums. Also no, I'm not going to make my own thread and let this one become an echo chamber of complaints. Sorry kid.

Nobody is crazy here, it's just weird that you think your perspective matters.

Alexa, play cry me a river by justin timberlake

Not a no-life ffxiv tryhard like you, I got better things to do than sit around playing games all day crying on the forums about square pandering to people who don't treat the game like their career.

[HikariKurosawa]

What's your point? I am stating my own opinion, not saying yours is invalid. Just expressing my disagreement with it personally and siding with the devs.

The other thing is, it's not simple at all the way it is now. It's just well designed.

[HeavenlyArmed]

I am stating my own opinion, not saying yours is invalid.

Calling people crybabies for having a different opinion isn't implying their opinion is invalid? Saying someone's thread must be satire because you disagree isn't stating their opinion is invalid? Saying that it's weird people think their perspective matters isn't invalidating their opinion? Saying you're "glad most of [us] are never going to be involved in making games" isn't invalidating our opinions? You may need to learn how language works instead of spending so much time on the forums.

[HikariKurosawa]

Calling people crybabies for having a different opinion isn't implying their opinion is invalid? Saying someone's thread must be satire because you disagree isn't stating their opinion is invalid? Saying that it's weird people think their perspective matters isn't invalidating their opinion? Saying you're "glad most of [us] are never going to be involved in making games" isn't invalidating our opinions? You may need to learn how language works instead of spending so much time on the forums.

There is a difference between invalidating my position objectively, and me invalidating your opinion. Everything I said is okay, because I express it as my perspective.

What isn't okay is saying stuff like this "nobody supports the changes" "the changes objectively made the job unfun".

I am expressing my personal opinion, you are trying to pretend that your opinion is the only one happening. I'm okay with your opinion existing, I just think it's ridiculous and cringe.

we are only seeing one person (that being you) immediately becoming upset the moment someone says anything here.

I've never been upset at one point in this thread. Why would I be? The changes they made this patch are incredible. You're acting like someone on the winning side would ever be upset rofl. You're losing, not me.

[HeavenlyArmed]

The other thing is, it's not simple at all the way it is now. It's just well designed.

To get back to the real discussion rather than sticking on your insistence that you're not invalidating people's opinions, let's go back to this. Dragoon may not be simple the way it is now in your opinion, but as I demonstrated in these two comments, it is the most simple it has been since the start of Stormblood.

Going into EW from ShB the job got simpler, between the 2 minute meta and the removal of Mirage Dives from Spineshatter, it was very straightforward to line up Life windows with buffs, and all they really added was charges that forced you to hold spineshatter for 2mins and Wyrmwind, which doesn't require a ton of thought. Then in DT they remove Mirage Dive's interaction entirely, [and] give us basically the same number of buttons to press meaning there is no added complexity.

[C]omplexity may not be exactly measurable, but it's hardly subjective. Having the exact amount of a resource that guarantees that every time buffs come off cooldown you willbe able to do your additional skills *is* less complicated than having too much or too little and needing to adjust to those circumstances to place those additional skills under as many buff windows as possible, and there is no person who will dispute that. And both of those are more complex than there not being a resource to manage, and those additional skills being accessed by pressing a button that has the exact same cooldown timer as the buffs you would be trying to align with, which again, no serious person would dispute. You can argue that Life Surge charges and Wyrmwind do add some complexity, but with Wyrmwind the entire thought process is "oh, my buffs will be back before I get another scale, let me hold this for a couple more seconds," which is not long-term planning, and with Life Surge it just amounts to press it twice under the stronger buffs and once under the weaker ones. Now, maybe some people will actually find that more complicated than needing to manage Gaze stacks to line up LotD and buffs, but I'd be shocked if that was a significant number of people.

[iiOmarSP]

Fun itself is a subjective concept. I don't want to play reaper lol, I like the job fantasy of dragoon and the animations. You just like mashing lots of buttons fast. Since you're suggesting me to play another job for gameplay, this means you must have no attachment to the fantasy of dragoon. So just play a different job yourself. Dragoon has always been one of the simpler melee jobs in the game. Play ninja, play samurai, play something else yourself.

Fun IS subjective yes, but at the same time: being miserable to play is also: a valid reason as to why people don't like it and therefore: Not fun to play.
I also play another Melee job, Ninja being my secondary, but I much prefer Dragoon due to its nature and aesthetics, being a busy job in BURST which is the absolute POINT.
And yes, I do have a attachment to its settings and fantasy aspects.

It's okay to give feedback, just recognize that you're stating subjective positions and don't try to argue with other people for expressing their subjective opinions.
There's no need to try to struggle for an echo chamber, it's not happening. State your case and be confident in it, stop yammering about the validity of differing opinions.

Which is exactly what everyone IS doing: they are Giving Feedback as to why they think this change is absolutely horrible, and while all of that is happening, you are over here with your little echo chamber of "everyone agrees with me", acting as if its just three or four people that complains, when pretty much only you in this ENTIRE THREAD, saying that its a "good change" without actually having any experience in it. So anything you say about the subject matter pretty much comes off as being disingenuous.

I get that you feel a certain way, speak for yourself.
The forums being a place for feedback statement goes both ways. I have never tried to invalidate your opinions or perspective, I just say that I like the way the game has changed and you decide that's a reason to argue. I explain why I like it, and you try to silence my perspective for what? Because you want an echo chamber. It's not happening lol. Get over it and move on.

So for that, there is one response to it:

You should also read and take up your own advice rather than constantly yap here in the forums, every single day, about how so many people like this change when its just you arguing with most people here about how they should consume product and never ask questions, rather than give feedback on this change.