Out of touch? PLL

[ForteNightshade]

Why are you using acquisition of the Mandragora Mounts, which are either purchasable with cowries, or the Adenium which takes like over 6 months to get (not to mention how hideous those mounts are that many players may not even want them?), as a measure of Island Sanctuary participation, but only using Elemental Level 60 as a measure of Eureka participation?

What percentage of players have the Ozma mount and Elemental Gear +2 and continued to grind BA after reaching Elemental Level 60 and completing the Eureka storyline?

What percentage of players have completed a max rank of Island Sanctuary and possibly bought the actual popular mounts?

The data isn't mine but what I found on a quick google search. Hence why I linked to the discussion reddit. I suspect they used the Mandragora because it's the cheapest mount available but someone else provided the data for the others.

Garlond GL-II: 271,050 (23.8% of total active)
Island Alligator: 174,904 (15.4%)
Island Mandragora Queen: 111,182 (9.8%)
Island Buffalo: 85,139 (7.5%)

So the "actual popular mounts" weren't all that popular. Or rather, Island Sanctuary itself wasn't.

As for why they didn't Ozma or Elemental Gear +2 because it wouldn't be relevant to the overall participation of Eureka but rather Baldesion Arsenal. Neither of those things would matter to casual players, especially the +2 which is only a stat boost for BA.

[Supersnow845]

I'm arguing about someone using statistics as a bad faith argument to create a gotcha moment to win their argument. It's comparing apples to oranges.

If we're going to use Eureka Elemental Level 60 as a measure of Eureka's popularity, then it's only fair to compare it to Island Sactuary's Maximum Rank percentage.

If we're going to use the Island Adenium Mount as a measure of Island Sanctuary continued grinding past the story content, then it's only fair to compare it to the Ozma acquisition percentage, or maybe the Elemental +2 gear. Like for like.

Especially since reaching Island Rank 20 still doesn't give enough cowries to purchase every mount, minion, glam and portrait. A player would have to continue playing Island Sanctuary for some time to acquire every reward, and for many players reaching their maximum rank and acquiring the things they like, is just good enough.

To claim that Eureka, and to an extent Bozja, participation wasn't at least somewhat boosted by them being linked to relic weapons is completely disingenuous, especially when complaints about how grindy they are, is very common.

I will concede, Bozja is slightly more fun due to CEs than Eureka, but the one off relic grinds for the first relic were still miserable to do, and chores aren't fun, that doesn't mean we won't suffer through them.

Like I said in a different comment you can cut out the “I’m only suffering this for the relic” people by looking at the comparison between reaching Zadnor and reaching resistance 25. Assuming everyone who dropped in that time did because they were only interested in the relic and not the content 3/4 of all players were in Bozja for the content and not the relic

It’s equally…..if not more disingenuous to imply the relic completely buoyed the content and it wasn’t popular on its own given statistically far more people would have dropped in the Zadnor range if the content was being completely buoyed by the relic. Not saying you are saying it’s completely buoyed by the relic but that is a comment sentiment

Your last paragraph is pure opinion

But like I said there is no malicious intent from the other person, they just used the best data we have available

[Erzaa]

The data isn't mine but what I found on a quick google search. Hence why I linked to the discussion reddit. I suspect they used the Mandragora because it's the cheapest mount available but someone else provided the data for the others.

Garlond GL-II: 271,050 (23.8% of total active)
Island Alligator: 174,904 (15.4%)
Island Mandragora Queen: 111,182 (9.8%)
Island Buffalo: 85,139 (7.5%)

So the "actual popular mounts" weren't all that popular. Or rather, Island Sanctuary itself wasn't.

As for why they didn't Ozma or Elemental Gear +2 because it wouldn't be relevant to the overall participation of Eureka but rather Baldesion Arsenal. Neither of those things would matter to casual players, especially the +2 which is only a stat boost for BA.

Thank you for linking the other stats.

Clearly, the mount everyone expected to be popular, is the most popular one, the motorcycle, which unlocks at Rank 10 and is owned by more players than those reached Elemental Level 60, while also being part of content not related to relic weapons.

This is exactly my point, you can't associate two unrelated items based on the stats.

It's highly likely that people suffered through Island Sanctuary just to get that and stopped. Or maybe most players got that mount, reached Rank 20 and got all the quest glams, watched the NPC interactions, and stopped.

Elemental Level 60 is when the Eureka story ends, for many players who were interested in seeing the ending, they would've continued doing so, just to see the ending. I know I did.

And yes the Ozma mount is very much relevant, because that's the gauge of user participation in Eureka after completion of the storyline. Just as, did players continue doing Felicitous Favours to acquire the Adenium mount, is participation in Island Sanctuary after completion of the story. And it's very likely, more players did do BA because the Ozma mount is probably more sought after than the Adenium mount, or any of the Mandragora mounts.

I mean, even the devs realise this, Mandragora mounts are valued at 12,000 cowries, whereas the Garlond motorcycles at 24,000 and 100,000. It's easy to gauge which mounts non-completionists will gravitate toward.

[Daralii]

Thank you for linking the other stats.

Clearly, the mount everyone expected to be popular, is the most popular one, the motorcycle, which unlocks at Rank 10 and is owned by more players than those reached Elemental Level 60, while also being part of content not related to relic weapons.

This is exactly my point, you can't associate two unrelated items based on the stats.

It's highly likely that people suffered through Island Sanctuary just to get that and stopped. Or maybe most players got that mount, reached Rank 20 and got all the quest glams, watched the NPC interactions, and stopped.

Elemental Level 60 is when the Eureka story ends, for many players who were interested in seeing the ending, they would've continued doing so, just to see the ending. I know I did.

And yes the Ozma mount is very much relevant, because that's the gauge of user participation in Eureka after completion of the storyline. Just as, did players continue doing Felicitous Favours to acquire the Adenium mount, is participation in Island Sanctuary after completion of the story. And it's very likely, more players did do BA because the Ozma mount is probably more sought after than the Adenium mount, or any of the Mandragora mounts.

I mean, even the devs realise this, Mandragora mounts are valued at 12,000 cowries, whereas the Garlond motorcycles at 24,000 and 100,000. It's easy to gauge which mounts non-completionists will gravitate toward.

Eureka and Bozja also require you to actually play the game. The Island Sanctuary becomes almost fully automated as soon as you unlock the workshop and granary.

[Erzaa]

...not the content 3/4 of all players were in Bozja for the content and not the relic

At the time of release, it was also content that existed primarily to provide players with something to do, to keep the game active. What else was there for players to do besides Bozja or Eureka? We see it now, people want the exploratory zone to come now, not later, because players uninterested in raiding are desperate for anything to do.

It’s equally…..if not more disingenuous to imply the relic completely buoyed the content and it wasn’t popular on its own given statistically far more people would have dropped in the Zadnor range if the content was being completely buoyed by the relic. Not saying you are saying it’s completely buoyed by the relic but that is a comment sentiment

I know you mentioned it with your last sentence, but I didn't make that claim. I also know players who really do enjoy the content and repeat it still to this day. I also know players who despise it with a passion and refuse to touch it. I know players who did it for the relic and story once and never went back.

Your last paragraph is pure opinion

And it's an opinion shared by many, complaints about the nature of the grind of exploratory zones is all too common. Those opinions exist for a reason.

But like I said there is no malicious intent from the other person, they just used the best data we have available

Wanting to win an argument isn't malicious. But we need to compare like for like. A person who says I didn't enjoy this content, it was too grindy and unfun, repetitious etc. shouldn't have their voice shut down, just because some forum members enjoyed the nature of it. There's nothing wrong with the game providing alternatives to just another exploratory zone grind.

[Erzaa]

Eureka and Bozja also require you to actually play the game. The Island Sanctuary becomes almost fully automated as soon as you unlock the workshop and granary.

Indeed. It really was awful, once the story ended and everything was unlocked.

[Supersnow845]

At the time of release, it was also content that existed primarily to provide players with something to do, to keep the game active. What else was there for players to do besides Bozja or Eureka? We see it now, people want the exploratory zone to come now, not later, because players uninterested in raiding are desperate for anything to do.


I know you mentioned it with your last sentence, but I didn't make that claim. I also know players who really do enjoy the content and repeat it still to this day. I also know players who despise it with a passion and refuse to touch it. I know players who did it for the relic and story once and never went back.


And it's an opinion shared by many, complaints about the nature of the grind of exploratory zones is all too common. Those opinions exist for a reason.


Wanting to win an argument isn't malicious. But we need to compare like for like. A person who says I didn't enjoy this content, it was too grindy and unfun, repetitious etc. shouldn't have their voice shut down, just because some forum members enjoyed the nature of it. There's nothing wrong with the game providing alternatives to just another exploratory zone grind.

From your first point you obviously understand the niche that field content is designed to fill and you agree the stats showed that Bozja especially filled that niche well. You don’t necessarily have to like it; and it’s obvious you don’t like field content; but the stats purely on Bozja do show that it was generally well interacted with.

The other persons point centred on the fact that square caved to complaints like yours (not in a rude way just in general) and gave an alternative casual content………and by and large it wasn’t well interacted with (or at least not as well as Bozja), of course IS was garbage and you are totally fine to say “I wanted something less grindy not something that actively tells me to go away so it can play itself” but that’s not an argument against Bozja

People shouldn’t have their voices shut out for not enjoying it but not should the reverse happen and your comment is an example of the reverse “these opinions exist for a reason” implying that field content is somehow fundamentally flawed that people enjoy in spite of this not something people genuinely enjoy because of its design. I’ll also point out that this sub topic started specifically because someone tried to attribute the popularity of Bozja completely to the relic

Just as much as people are allowed to say they didn’t like Bozja people are also allowed to say they did enjoy it and point to its statistical popularity which no content before or since has remotely rivalled

[Erzaa]

From your first point you obviously understand the niche that field content is designed to fill and you agree the stats showed that Bozja especially filled that niche well. You don’t necessarily have to like it; and it’s obvious you don’t like field content; but the stats purely on Bozja do show that it was generally well interacted with.

The other persons point centred on the fact that square caved to complaints like yours (not in a rude way just in general) and gave an alternative casual content………and by and large it wasn’t well interacted with (or at least not as well as Bozja), of course IS was garbage and you are totally fine to say “I wanted something less grindy not something that actively tells me to go away so it can play itself” but that’s not an argument against Bozja

People shouldn’t have their voices shut out for not enjoying it but not should the reverse happen and your comment is an example of the reverse “these opinions exist for a reason” implying that field content is somehow fundamentally flawed that people enjoy in spite of this not something people genuinely enjoy because of its design. I’ll also point out that this sub topic started specifically because someone tried to attribute the popularity of Bozja completely to the relic

Just as much as people are allowed to say they didn’t like Bozja people are also allowed to say they did enjoy it and point to its statistical popularity which no content before or since has remotely rivalled

I completely agree with you. People have a right to complain about anything they wish, and argue their opinions as much as they want.

And the solution isn't to remove field content, or replace it. It's to add more to it. Add the field content, add the deep dungeons, make FATEs and overworld content more interesting, link the relic grind to multiple methods of acquisition; and if they can, add and experiment with new content, like the did with Variant dungeons. Then, let the playerbase decide which they find more fun to do.

By only creating one method of acquisition, or one type of gameplay to keep players engaged, it funnels players who may not necessarily want to be there, into said content, making them unhappy. They'll put in minimal effort just to get whatever reward their seeking, complain incessantly because they're forced into it. Not to mention, it makes it seem like the devs aren't confident in what they designed.

If you have multiple methods of relic acquisition say (as an example, it could be any sought after reward), and all else being approximately equal (i.e. drop rates, time to clear etc.), and field content is indeed the most fun for the majority of the playerbase, then it'll stand on its own two legs, players will naturally gravitate to it, for its entertainment value.

I don't advocate for removal of any type of content. But I do advocate for more content so players can find that piece they enjoy.

Edit: And yes, you might say that segregates the playerbase, but then we'll also know, what piece of content players find actually fun, and what content they just suffer through for the shiny at the end of the road.

[ForteNightshade]

Clearly, the mount everyone expected to be popular, is the most popular one, the motorcycle, which unlocks at Rank 10 and is owned by more players than those reached Elemental Level 60, while also being part of content not related to relic weapons.

Of course it is. Reaching Elemental 60 is a considerably larger investment than Island Sanctuary which is little more than a glorified retainer. Comparing the two is completely disingenuous because one requires going through four entire zones of battle content whereas the other is putting things in a spreadsheet.

Elemental Level 60 is when the Eureka story ends, for many players who were interested in seeing the ending, they would've continued doing so, just to see the ending. I know I did.

Funny thing. This very common misconception. Not just in this game but in gaming as a whole. The majority of people who play games don't actually complete them or stick with it "just to see the ending." We know this based on achievement data. Seriously. Pick any game, be it single player, co-op, MMO, shooter or really doesn't matter. Go look up the trophy/achievement for completing their respective story modes and you'll find very few people actually finish them.

If you're grinding through four zones of Eureka, you aren't the casual demographic this game markets towards but more in the middle. Most of those players aren't going to invest tens of hours to reach level 60 in Hydatos unless they actually like the content. Or at the very least want the rewards it offers. They'll watch the story on youtube or twitch if they care at all.

And yes the Ozma mount is very much relevant, because that's the gauge of user participation in Eureka after completion of the storyline. Just as, did players continue doing Felicitous Favours to acquire the Adenium mount, is participation in Island Sanctuary after completion of the story. And it's very likely, more players did do BA because the Ozma mount is probably more sought after than the Adenium mount, or any of the Mandragora mounts.

No, it isn't. Baldesion Arsenal is a completely different piece of content that targets the raid community not the general playerbase. You're trying to conflate the two as if they're one in the same. Adenium mount isn't locked behind several Extreme level bosses that requires large scale communication between 24 players. That's the equivalent of basing DT's active player count on how many people have the EX mount. Just because BA is gated behind Eureka doesn't mean it appeals to the same demographic.

Regardless, the Adenium mount can be bought off the market board. Which immediately disqualifies it for any relevant statistical data. I am curious though why you keep bringing up that particular mount. I just double checked and the reddit post I linked never once mentions it. In fact, when I ctrl+F, not a single post came up for the Adenium mount. Bluntly stated, nobody ever used it to gauge participation. So I have no idea why you even brought it up in the first place.

[Erzaa]

Of course it is. Reaching Elemental 60 is a considerably larger investment than Island Sanctuary which is little more than a glorified retainer. Comparing the two is completely disingenuous because one requires going through four entire zones of battle content whereas the other is putting things in a spreadsheet.

Precisely. You attempted to present Island Sanctuary participation rates, based on the playerbase owning the Island Mandragora mount, which can be bought for 12,000 cowries and is available as early as rank 1? (I believe?), as compared to the playerbase reaching Eureka Level 60 participation. That's a false equivalency. The statistics you posted later show the far more popular mount, the Garlond GL-II, which costs 24,000 cowries (double the mandragora mount) and is available at rank 10, as having a higher percentage of ownership. Ergo, more of the playerbase participated in Island Sanctuary than your numbers indicate.

A true equivalency would be how many Islands have reached the maximum possible rank, as compared to how many players reached the maximum Elemental rank. I don't understand what's hard to understand about this. And yes, I'm aware Supersnow said we don't have data for that, I don't know, I trust they're correct, but still, the entire point is, don't conflate two entirely different situations. The statistics of ownership of the Island Mandragora are completely irrelevant to the total set of players who've participated with Island Sanctuary.

Funny thing. This very common misconception. Not just in this game but in gaming as a whole. The majority of people who play games don't actually complete them or stick with it "just to see the ending." We know this based on achievement data. Seriously. Pick any game, be it single player, co-op, MMO, shooter or really doesn't matter. Go look up the trophy/achievement for completing their respective story modes and you'll find very few people actually finish them.

If you're grinding through four zones of Eureka, you aren't the casual demographic this game markets towards but more in the middle. Most of those players aren't going to invest tens of hours to reach level 60 in Hydatos unless they actually like the content. Or at the very least want the rewards it offers. They'll watch the story on youtube or twitch if they care at all.

But we're not discussing players who didn't complete Eureka, or players who don't finish content. We're discussing the specific percentage of players who did complete the content, i.e. the ones who reached the Elemental level 60. The argument you're trying to make is that Eureka is more popular than Island Sanctuary with the majority of the playerbase, has a higher percentage of interaction, no?

No, it isn't. Baldesion Arsenal is a completely different piece of content that targets the raid community not the general playerbase. You're trying to conflate the two as if they're one in the same. Adenium mount isn't locked behind several Extreme level bosses that requires large scale communication between 24 players. That's the equivalent of basing DT's active player count on how many people have the EX mount. Just because BA is gated behind Eureka doesn't mean it appeals to the same demographic.

The amount of the playerbase interacting with a specific mount or not is very much relevant, considering the two items you're conflating, as I stated above. You compare apples to apples, not apples to oranges. If you're conflating player participation and popularity with Island Sanctuary, based on a mount they may or may not have bought, then you should include the playerbase willing to continue past Eureka's maximum level to get the Ozma mount. Both pieces of content don't allow you to receive all rewards by simply reaching the maximum possible rank.

If you're simply conflating popularity based reaching the maximum possible rank, which would be a state of finality, i.e. Elemental Level 60, then you need to compare it to date regarding the maximum Island Sanctuary rank 20, not a mount bought with a miniscule amount of cowries. Reaching Island Sancturary Rank 20 won't even give you enough cowries for the most expensive mounts, unless you continue playing with that awful spreadsheet simulator every week.

The question here is, "How popular is Eureka with the majority of the playerbase, as compared to something super casual such as Island Sanctuary, based on how many players are interested in it enough to interact with it to the end?". This comes from the argument that Eureka is somehow very popular with most players and they don't find it boring, they enjoy interacting with it. So, where do you qualify Eureka and Island Sanctuary ending? Is it when they achieve the maximum possible rank? Is it when they get the final reward? Or is it simply unlocking the content and never bothering with it again?

Regardless, the Adenium mount can be bought off the market board. Which immediately disqualifies it for any relevant statistical data. I am curious though why you keep bringing up that particular mount. I just double checked and the reddit post I linked never once mentions it. In fact, when I ctrl+F, not a single post came up for the Adenium mount. Bluntly stated, nobody ever used it to gauge participation. So I have no idea why you even brought it up in the first place.

The only reason I brought up the Adenium mount, is because I wasn't sure, based on the stats you posted originally, which Mandragora mount you're referring to. Different Mandragora mounts unlock at different ranks, and I wouldn't be surprised if none of them are that popular.

In conclusion, just don't take the measure of a mount that can be bought with a currency, that players may or may not be interested in at all, as evidence of the popularity, or lack of, a piece of content, especially when players interact with said content for any number of reasons.

But... yes, Eureka is probably better content than Island Sanctuary, that doesn't mean it's good content, just better that Island Sanctuary.