Why current job design is boring?

[Tunda]

But the thing is, Healers currently have much less of a base level of damage output than tanks do, and we also can end up getting less uptime. I want Healers and Tanks to be at the same base level. If SE is afraid of giving Healers more attacks, it can just mean having Glare/Broil/Malefic/Dosis spam + the DoT doing roughly the same amount of damage as Tanks doing doing their rotation. And then losing DPS as they have to heal, and not having less damage by having too low potency.

I really want to know how devs was thinking when they design healers.. I really don't think anyone of them actually play healer more than 2hr a week

[Tunda]

Oh yeah no I wasn't saying the current job design is good. I have a burning hatred for the 2 min meta from how much it's limiting job design. I'm saying it's a big part of what makes the battle system fun and they shouldn't be destroying it like they had for the past 2-3 expacs

Addressing 2min/1min window would be a good start to revamp a broken system

[Shikiseki]

While the infamous 2min meta killed a lot of my excitement to even touch current pve content, I think the job philosophy as a whole is fundamentally flawed at this point.

We had a lot of "jank" but basic RPG elements removed over the years like a heavy effect on stone, shadow flare which could slow down enemies etc. They do seem superflous at first glance but it's what gave unique flavour to this Final Fantasy game, where the job system always presents battle styles that are unique to the said job. That is why the pvp kits are highly praised imo - meaningful buttons that all feel unique enough that makes every job change feel fresh despite running the same content all over again.

I want those kits to interact with eachother, finding out combo attacks that work especially well in a certain scenario, especially class synergy. I want those blinds, silences, pushbacks, turning enemies into toads, dashing across the battlefield on a speedy job each job to feel unique, useful and fun to play. Noone said it's gonna be easy but they pulled it off in so many of their games, even spinoffs like bravely, octopath and tactics. And yeah there will eventually be an "optimal route" but that's how all RPGs are supposed to be!

Heck this game could have flexed with it's unique system to be all jobs in 1 player by allowing something like picking a sub job to bring into duty you could swith by swapping weapons. Instead they remained stagnant and rigid over 11 years! Forgot how to take risks... to explore... to evolve.

By trying to appeal everyone, they ended up pleasing noone and it's honestly to late to change the systems anymore.

[Grumblecakes]

All of them because picto and viper murder already easy normal content so fast it's even more of a snooze.

[BabyYoda]

While the infamous 2min meta killed a lot of my excitement to even touch current pve content, I think the job philosophy as a whole is fundamentally flawed at this point.

We had a lot of "jank" but basic RPG elements removed over the years like a heavy effect on stone, shadow flare which could slow down enemies etc. They do seem superflous at first glance but it's what gave unique flavour to this Final Fantasy game, where the job system always presents battle styles that are unique to the said job. That is why the pvp kits are highly praised imo - meaningful buttons that all feel unique enough that makes every job change feel fresh despite running the same content all over again.

I want those kits to interact with eachother, finding out combo attacks that work especially well in a certain scenario, especially class synergy. I want those blinds, silences, pushbacks, turning enemies into toads, dashing across the battlefield on a speedy job each job to feel unique, useful and fun to play. Noone said it's gonna be easy but they pulled it off in so many of their games, even spinoffs like bravely, octopath and tactics. And yeah there will eventually be an "optimal route" but that's how all RPGs are supposed to be!

Heck this game could have flexed with it's unique system to be all jobs in 1 player by allowing something like picking a sub job to bring into duty you could swith by swapping weapons. Instead they remained stagnant and rigid over 11 years! Forgot how to take risks... to explore... to evolve.

By trying to appeal everyone, they ended up pleasing noone and it's honestly to late to change the systems anymore.

more of that current jobs do not feel impactful..

playing as a healer when tanks and dps can have healing..

tank mitigations are copy paste with as little innovation as possible

not only tank but all type of mitigations doesn't feel impactful

Jobs that are specialized in supporting and giving buffs their buffs doesn't feel impactful because there almost all other top chart DPS jobs have a party buff.

if everyone in this earth got 1 gram of gold.. the gold will be cheaper than water.. this is exactly what is happening.

I think later on we will have DPS jobs that can mitigate tank busters

[Raven2014]

I really want to know how devs was thinking when they design healers.. I really don't think anyone of them actually play healer more than 2hr a week

Because they intended for the DPS to be the minor part, not the main part of the role. I think healer intend to help push that last 1-2% DPS that would make a different between a clear and an enrage wipe, or help compensating under performance DPS. But through a combination of things, both from years of timid design (not enough raid damage) to the hard-push toward DPS, and the player base natural inclination toward DPS thanks to a certain "website" ... healer has become a green DPS now.

In a way I feel the healer problem pretty much mirror the housing problem. They have a vision that sounds reasonable, but through series of bad decisions combine with the sluggish rate issues are addressed, they're now at a point where the problem has become too big and it's too late to fix.

[Supersnow845]

Because they intended for the DPS to be the minor part, not the main part of the role. I think healer intend to help push that last 1-2% DPS that would make a different between a clear and an enrage wipe, or help compensating under performance DPS. But through a combination of things, both from years of timid design (not enough raid damage) to the hard-push toward DPS, and the player base natural inclination toward DPS thanks to a certain "website" ... healer has become a green DPS now.

In a way I feel the healer problem pretty much mirror the housing problem. They have a vision that sounds reasonable, but through series of bad decisions combine with the sluggish rate issues are addressed, they're now at a point where the problem has become too big and it's too late to fix.

But that implies healers have always been behind tanks as an intentional design decision when really this “there is no crossing this gap you WILL do less damage than the tank” only really came in EW and DT

between tank and cleric stance it’s sorta hard to compare DPS numbers but both were competitive with each other prior to ShB, ShB actually favoured healers depending on your group then suddenly they just massively blew up tank damage while giving healers 15 potency on their nukes

[Raikai]

While the infamous 2min meta killed a lot of my excitement to even touch current pve content, I think the job philosophy as a whole is fundamentally flawed at this point.

We had a lot of "jank" but basic RPG elements removed over the years like a heavy effect on stone, shadow flare which could slow down enemies etc. They do seem superflous at first glance but it's what gave unique flavour to this Final Fantasy game, where the job system always presents battle styles that are unique to the said job. That is why the pvp kits are highly praised imo - meaningful buttons that all feel unique enough that makes every job change feel fresh despite running the same content all over again.

I want those kits to interact with eachother, finding out combo attacks that work especially well in a certain scenario, especially class synergy. I want those blinds, silences, pushbacks, turning enemies into toads, dashing across the battlefield on a speedy job each job to feel unique, useful and fun to play. Noone said it's gonna be easy but they pulled it off in so many of their games, even spinoffs like bravely, octopath and tactics. And yeah there will eventually be an "optimal route" but that's how all RPGs are supposed to be!

Heck this game could have flexed with it's unique system to be all jobs in 1 player by allowing something like picking a sub job to bring into duty you could swith by swapping weapons. Instead they remained stagnant and rigid over 11 years! Forgot how to take risks... to explore... to evolve.

By trying to appeal everyone, they ended up pleasing noone and it's honestly to late to change the systems anymore.

I see the 2min meta with two points, regarding the development team:

1) They truly believe that having very cemented and homogenized jobs makes good gameplay and for them is more interesting to add fancy animations to follow up attacks with just plain potency than actual engaging job mechanics.

2) They fully know how limiting this is, but since the status quo is easy to balance (compared to other games like WoW where the classes are in a constant rollercoaster of balance), they stick with it because if there's one thing they absolutely know how is playing safe.

I hardly believe that an experienced game director like Yoshida would buy the 1) idea, especially because XIV's job design was actually interesting from ARR to Stormblood, which leads me to believe that they're simply resting on safe. I'm not quite hopeful for what they have in store for jobs in 8.0, and I never wanted so much to be wrong. Time will tell, I guess.

[BabyYoda]

But that implies healers have always been behind tanks as an intentional design decision when really this “there is no crossing this gap you WILL do less damage than the tank” only really came in EW and DT

between tank and cleric stance it’s sorta hard to compare DPS numbers but both were competitive with each other prior to ShB, ShB actually favoured healers depending on your group then suddenly they just massively blew up tank damage while giving healers 15 potency on their nukes

Healers and Tanks are sub DPS jobs and they should be like that..

tanks having higher damage isn't acceptable even more of that how warrior solo heal expert content it is just a complete mess

[Remember_The_Name]

I hardly believe that an experienced game director like Yoshida would buy the 1) idea, especially because XIV's job design was actually interesting from ARR to Stormblood, which leads me to believe that they're simply resting on safe.

I also believe that they simply went with the safest route to make future changes about the jobs easier (and cheaper). If you turn all of them into a single framework with different animations, balancing them out does indeed becomes easier, but at what cost?

As history shows, some jobs WILL be frowned upon no matter what, even when difference in dps is 2%, even if you can clear content with lowest performing jobs (P8S didn't happen, no no no, don't look here!). Their "perfect balance" idea is simply not achievable and sticking to 2 minutes meta will only further harm the game.