Fix the Elemental Wheel

[Andrien]

Water is a form of cleansing so it effect Cure spell.

Adapt and adjust to it.

[Wolfie]

So what are you saying...? That there's a satisfying sense of structure, consistent with itself and discernible in other manifestations of the world, that somehow explains the rather ambiguous current elemental structure? Are you saying that criticism of the current system is uncalled for?

Yes, I'm exactly saying that the criticism is uncalled for and baseless. There already is structure to it, and it's not satisfying to the people complaining about it because it doesn't conform to the structure that they've already convinced themselves is the "best" structure. These things are completely arbitrary and subjective, and the Final Fantasy series as a whole doesn't adhere to any specific elemental wheel. It's complaining for the sake of complaining; or more accurately, complaining because this game doesn't directly rip from FFXI.

By the way, to those that say that Earth, Fire, Air, Water, etc. are not real elements, allow me to respond that--at least at some point of human development--they totally were. Greek philosophers identified the four mentioned above as the building bricks of all matter. They also included a fifth element (in Latin, quinta essentia or quintessence, which the Greeks called Aether, a prophetic forerunner of modern-day consmologists' Dark Matter. More to the point, Aether is a definite reference pointing to the inspiration for SE's elements and the current game's cosmogony.)

If later science found the Classical Elements to be a rather simplistic model, the beauty of this simplicity and structural elegance, guided later scientists and the scientific mind in the search of the fundamental materials of the world. So let's treat the simple elemental scheme with pride, and honor it as a forerunner of the hyper-complex building-block theories in today's Nuclear Physic's and Cosmology.

Many centuries of scientific development later we have compiled a somewhat more complicated elemental table, which is now beyond doubt, thanks to the scientific method and its experimental demonstrations. And yet, the initial, fundamental concept of the "elements" was advanced by the classical philosophers all those centuries ago, in classical antiquity. They, the inventors of our systems of thought, who named these basic substances as Water, Air, Fire, and Earth, would have recognized the patterns in these games. Adding a few more elements to make it more practical for gaming purposes doesn't sound that out of bounds.

R

The similarities between FFXIV's elements and the elements that the Greeks proposed is superficial at best, and it's a completely irrelevant point because this game is not set in Ancient Greece and is not based on their mythological (and then scientific) writings. The Greeks didn't have an 'elemental wheel', and people didn't possess an inherent 'element', causing them to be weak to another element. The only parallel you can draw between FFXIV's elements and the Greek elements are names and maybe in concept; but all that Greek science and philosophy goes out the window when you throw in your own elements.

[Rutelor]

Why does this matter?

How can one argue that the rules someone made up for how magic operates in their fictional world are wrong? Just accept it for what it is, a concept made up in someone's imagination, and let it go.

I'll answer this, Wynn. One can argue because of precedents... Most, if not all, of the most absorbing, mystifying, interesting, and exciting of the imaginary worlds ever created in all disciplines of Arts and Entertainment are those that respond to consistent and elegant inner rules. These worlds include some of the great epic poems, novels, operas, films and games that are the forerunners of the MMOs that we, you and I, choose to play today.

I want this inner logic to be present in this game, not just to bust anybody's genitalia (that includes yours,) but rather to add consistency, interest and depth to a world that I would like to visit often in years to come. It was this inner logic and elegance that attracted us all (those who visited it, that is) to Vana'diel and it was no small part of the appeal that kept us anchored there for so many joyful years. It was a world that made sense and felt real and that captured attention and affection, not just because it was fun, but also because it obeyed its own laws with admirable consistency. This is simply the reason why lore is important.

Or do you think that when Tolkien wrote his Lord of Rings tetralogy, or when Rowling wrote her Harry Potter cycle, or when George Lucas chose his sources of inspiration for his Star Wars saga... do you really think they just wrote what came into their heads without some sense of skeletal order for their universes. It's the consistency and inner logic of these worlds that keeps succeeding generations fascinated with their myths.

So we're just asking for the standards of imaginary worlds to be maintained.

R

[Starlord]

standards of imaginary worlds to be maintained.

In an Imaginary world... there no "Standard". Because everything is made up ( not real).. Its suppose to be fun and creative . Expand your mind.. and not just seclude yourself to 1 particular thing...

[Rutelor]

Water is a form is cleansing so it effect Cure spell.

Adapt and adjust to it.

I'll wait for an official announcement that this is the case, or for empirical evidence to surface, that cure spells actually respond to an increase of water stats.

However, it seems rather arbitrary to me to make all spells corresponding to other elements destructive (while also being able to say of at least some of them that they possess some positive aspect in their constitution) and yet, single out water to be solely a healing element. If that was part of the reasoning, I find it inconsistent and, as I said, arbitrary.

[Rutelor]

Yes, I'm exactly saying that the criticism is uncalled for and baseless. There already is structure to it, and it's not satisfying to the people complaining about it because it doesn't conform to the structure that they've already convinced themselves is the "best" structure. These things are completely arbitrary and subjective, and the Final Fantasy series as a whole doesn't adhere to any specific elemental wheel. It's complaining for the sake of complaining; or more accurately, complaining because this game doesn't directly rip from FFXI.

It seems to me that, either you didn't read what I wrote, or you failed to comprehend it. I am not calling for an elemental wheel... the developers did And not one, but two! So, don't blame me. But if they do, I'd rather see it reflected in the world at large with consistency and logic. Otherwise it feels arbitrary.

Go back, reread my reply to your post and please notice that I'm not calling for FFXI's elemental wheel, or for any wheel at all.

The similarities between FFXIV's elements and the elements that the Greeks proposed is superficial at best, and it's a completely irrelevant point because this game is not set in Ancient Greece and is not based on their mythological (and then scientific) writings. The Greeks didn't have an 'elemental wheel', and people didn't possess an inherent 'element', causing them to be weak to another element. The only parallel you can draw between FFXIV's elements and the Greek elements are names and maybe in concept; but all that Greek science and philosophy goes out the window when you throw in your own elements.

Perhaps you failed to notice, Dear Wolfie, that in this respect at least, Greek science had already gone out of the window by the time of the advent of Dalton and modern Atomic Theory.

Other than that, I never said that the Greeks a) had an elemental wheel, b) or that their people possessed an 'inherent element', or weaknesses to some other. I only pointed at the elegant historical sources for the cosmogony in many modern role-playing and adventure video games. By the way, the structure of the four or five elements was not restricted to Greek civilization. Indian, Persian, Chinese, and Japanese classical cultures all had similar systems, arguably descendants of the Greek model. (Or perhaps its forerunners, I'm not sure of the chronology.) Some of these, like some Asian systems, had additional elements and a wheel-like organization of strengths and weaknesses, called, if I recall correctly, the creation and the destruction cycles.

But I'm not arguing that these ancient theories and cycles are what makes the elemental structures in XIV and XI good or bad. I was not addressing the mention of these historical precedents to you. Read my post again.

R

[Rutelor]

In an Imaginary world... there no "Standard". Because everything is made up ( not real).. Its suppose to be fun and creative . Expand your mind.. and not just seclude yourself to 1 particular thing...

There are imaginary worlds, and Imaginary Worlds. We want ours to have consistent lore, and inherent logic. That's all. All the good ones do.

R

[Starlord]

There are imaginary worlds, and Imaginary Worlds. I want ours to have consistent lore, and inherent logic. That's all. All the good ones do.

R

Fixed that for ya

[Andrien]

I'll wait for an official announcement that this is the case, or for empirical evidence to surface, that cure spells actually respond to an increase of water stats.

However, it seems rather arbitrary to me to make all spells corresponding to other elements destructive (while also being able to say of at least some of them that they possess some positive aspect in their constitution) and yet, single out water to be solely a healing element. If that was part of the reasoning, I find it inconsistent and, as I said, arbitrary.

I saved you the trouble of searching for it.

There aren't any water-based attack spells, but conjurers do control water-based spells. The break down of elements are as follows:
CNJ: Water/Wind/Earth
THM: Fire/Ice/Lightning

Also, there are no paralyze/poison/silence/absorb/slow and there aren't any plans to implement them before the launch of version 2.0. However, as we move forward, if it becomes absolutely necessary to utilize them, we will look into it.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...982#post453982

[Nullie]

I've always seen it myself as Earth > Thunder > Water > Fire > Ice > Wind > Earth.

I don't see thunder doing much to earth. Lightning bolt hits the ground...that's about it. Now put that shock in some water and we're cooking. Haha. Course water puts out the fire. Fire melts the ice. I really can't say so much for ice and wind. Would take a lot of wind to try to melt ice, but really could just help water freeze over faster? And the destruction a tornado can do to earth is quite powerful. :3