Fix the Elemental Wheel

[Enfarious]

I'm of the opinion that normal creatures shouldn't be elementally aligned at all, with some exceptions of course, fish live in water, of course that we fight monstrous crabs ... Following the theroy of electricity a bird hit by lightning in midflight would actually be unaffected by the electricity itself as it's not actually grounded and therefore provides no path for electricity to follow to ground. It's the heat generated by the strike that causes that damage, not unlike the squirell running down the high voltage lines running down the road.

Vaymathias your absolutely right, it's not that we are after realism as the above examples point out. It's that we want something that can be believed, where what we know of reality isn't demolished but rather enhanced to become the fantastic.

Everywhere I say we I mean I, and anyone else that chooses to agree with me.

[Wolfie]

Based on the majority of the games out there.
edit: also, this. Water being opposite of Fire makes more sense than Wind anyway.

They might have had different rules, but base element relationships were never twisted as they are in FFXIV - I'd remember that.
I don't care if it was fire <-> ice | lightning <-> water or fire -> ice -> lightning -> water -> fire
But going wind -> fire is ridiculous. Speaking of realism: why do you think we fear the wind when there are fires around?

No, it won't. I played this game since alpha and I still have to keep the elemental wheel chart open. They tried to be different for the sake of being different, and you see where it got them. They're fixing the things with 2.0, so they might as well fix this too.

Oh my god this is literally real life Idiocracy.

Did you read that Wikipedia article you linked? The only culture that had any kind of cycle in the elements was ancient Chinese, and even that one was nothing like any of the FF elemental strengths and weaknesses. This entire discussion is about the elemental wheel, and not the elements themselves. And there is no standard of what an elemental wheel should be. It's made up on the spot, in any game, because it's fantasy.

Going Wind > Fire is not ridiculous because this is all made up bulls**t. Can you get that through your head? None of this is real. Whatever reasoning for it exists in the game now (which it does) is sufficient. The fact that you don't think it's a good fit or that it's ridiculous is a testament to the fact that you have preconceived notions from other games' equally made up bulls**t about what an 'elemental wheel' should be.

The fact that you're bringing real life arguments into this is completely irrelevant. A strong wind will snuff out a weaker fire, a strong fire will be spread by wind or will suffocate it, throwing water on a grease fire will intensify it, boiling water will evaporate it, throwing dirt on fire will extinguish it, fire can melt rock into lava. You can make a case for literally anything if you start bringing real life examples because there is no such thing as an elemental wheel or cycle in real life.

[Volsung]

stop this thread so i can stop +1ing wolfie >.>

look at pokemon, look at .hack, look at FFX, elemental wheel needed? nope.

[Wolfie]

Aww, you're saying that like it's a crime to agree with me.

[Volsung]

Aww, you're saying that like it's a crime to agree with me.

I'm silly like that

[Soukyuu]

Did you read that Wikipedia article you linked? The only culture that had any kind of cycle in the elements was ancient Chinese, and even that one was nothing like any of the FF elemental strengths and weaknesses. This entire discussion is about the elemental wheel, and not the elements themselves. And there is no standard of what an elemental wheel should be. It's made up on the spot, in any game, because it's fantasy.

Classical elements did set the standards of elemental opposites. I don't care about wheels, all I want is classical elemental opposites, which ffxiv doesn't have.

Going Wind > Fire is not ridiculous because this is all made up bulls**t. Can you get that through your head? None of this is real. Whatever reasoning for it exists in the game now (which it does) is sufficient. The fact that you don't think it's a good fit or that it's ridiculous is a testament to the fact that you have preconceived notions from other games' equally made up bulls**t about what an 'elemental wheel' should be.

Yes, the elements are not "real". So what? Does it make sense to change elemental relationships? If it's "all made up of bulls**t", then hey, why not make water burn ice! It doesn't have to make sense! It's just magic! Let's be original!

The fact that you're bringing real life arguments into this is completely irrelevant. A strong wind will snuff out a weaker fire, a strong fire will be spread by wind or will suffocate it, throwing water on a grease fire will intensify it, boiling water will evaporate it, throwing dirt on fire will extinguish it, fire can melt rock into lava. You can make a case for literally anything if you start bringing real life examples because there is no such thing as an elemental wheel or cycle in real life.

Yes, there isn't such a thing as an elemental wheel. There is common sense though.

[Wolfie]

Classical elements did set the standards of elemental opposites. I don't care about wheels, all I want is classical elemental opposites, which ffxiv doesn't have.

I'm thoroughly convinced that you didn't actually read that Wikipedia article. Classical what? Classical Greek? Where does Ice, Thunder, Astral and Umbral fit on that model?

Classical Chinese? Where does Air, Ice, Thunder, Astral and Umbral fit on there? Classical Buddhist? There are no opposites. Hindu? Nope.

Yes, the elements are not "real". So what? Does it make sense to change elemental relationships? If it's "all made up of bulls**t", then hey, why not make water burn ice! It doesn't have to make sense! It's just magic! Let's be original!

Yes, there isn't such a thing as an elemental wheel. There is common sense though.

Dude, there is no common sense here because there is no standard, and you can argue for any opposition. Do you not understand this?

[Soukyuu]

Wow. Seriously now? I give up, it's like talking to a wall.
Last hint: the diagrams show the opposites. And of course they don't have umbral/astral because they only used aether, if any.

[Wolfie]

Wow. Seriously now? I give up, it's like talking to a wall.
Last hint: the diagrams show the opposites. And of course they don't have umbral/astral because they only used aether, if any.

I am now thoroughly convinced that you don't actually read my posts, but only briefly skim over them and cherry-pick a few words or phrases to argue against or disprove with more baseless, illogical claims and half-answers.

[Lux_Rayna]

Wow. Seriously now? I give up, it's like talking to a wall.
Last hint: the diagrams show the opposites. And of course they don't have umbral/astral because they only used aether, if any.

This is the classical case of when a belief is so strong ppl convince themselves of a reality that never existed. There was never a standard...ever. Different cultures around the same historical period developed different ideas about elements and their relationships. Some had opposites, some did not. Some had some elements, others did not. You speak of standard but that article proves there *was* no standard. There was only cultural difference. For some reason you take Greek for standard, but there were plenty of systems in opposition to Greek, so I dont know where you get this notion from. Greek is the one you like, fine, just admit its personal preference. Outside of that you are making things up, standard did NOT exist.