Fix the Elemental Wheel

[Rutelor]

I agree with your post in general terms. But there are things that bother me more than the sequences within the dual wheel. One aspect of the game has irked me no end after the new class skills, and subsequently the job skills, were implemented: Namely, the fact that, in order to preserve the nuking power of two different casting classes, and to make the elemental separation, the reduction of the number of spells, and the consolidation of combos and AoE effects mutually compatible, the effects of the elements were rendered fuzzy and ambiguous.

The elemental wheel, which--at least in theory--was there (and has been there in many games) as a sort of backbone helping define the theory behind spell-casting and its effects, has instead become muddled with ambiguity, and confusing at the very least. Where the result was supposed to be a feeling of resourcefulness and specificity in certain actions. leading to understanding and maximizing power, spells instead were doomed never to acquire such specificity. Nowadays casting Stone instead of Fire has to do more with what you have available in your actions palette, rather than any effect you desire for your spell, and these decisions and effects don't seem to respond to the elemental wheel logic.

I want an element-biased world, I want a series of lore-supported rules determining those biases, and I want, as a THM/BLM which has come to be the elementalist in this game, to be able to strategize my attacks based on those biases and that lore. Making the CNJ/WHM and the THM/BLM divide among themselves the few elemental spells that were left after the class skill rehash, and the consequent elimination of the AoE toggle, has deprived them of variety, depth and richness and made us into indiscriminate nukers at best.

In all fairness, this game has never had a clearly defined set of elemental-bias rules. Tanaka's initial monstrosity didn't seem to have any gears underneath its surface claims that there was elemental differentiation. After Yoshida's fix, we at least notice a weak sense of elemental bias. But I, and many of my fellow players, don't find this to be enough.

I hope this game somehow manages to find its lost north in the elemental wheel.

R

[Volsung]

Really, this again?

First of all, its not real elements, some are matter and others are energy, (earth and water are matter while thunder and fire are energy) ITS MAGIC. Not only that but "wind" doesnt have to behave like wind we know, it could be a vacuum or blades, or hell it could just be devoid of oxygen/other gasses and be a force.

I personally like 2 different wheels because its different.

[SirOleas]

I think the problem here is people seem to be comparing real life to a video game...

Bad idea.

[Wolfie]

I think the problem here is people seem to be comparing real life to a video game...

Bad idea.

I think the real problem is people can't accept FFXIV's own lore and mechanics, and insist on copying FFXI for no good reason. Again.

[Soukyuu]

The real problem is, they were using a reasonable element system throughout nearly all previous FF titles, with fire <-> ice / earth <-> wind / water <-> lightning, but decided to change it for ffxiv. why? because...

[Wolfie]

The real problem is, they were using a reasonable element system throughout nearly all previous FF titles, with fire <-> ice / earth <-> wind / water <-> lightning, but decided to change it for ffxiv. why? because...

You do realize that almost every FF game has had different element rules than the last, right? And that element weakness wasn't determined on an Element > Element basis, but Element > Creature Type basis, right?

[Rutelor]

You do realize that almost every FF game has had different element rules than the last, right? And that element weakness wasn't determined on an Element > Element basis, but Element > Creature Type basis, right?

So what are you saying...? That there's a satisfying sense of structure, consistent with itself and discernible in other manifestations of the world, that somehow explains the rather ambiguous current elemental structure? Are you saying that criticism of the current system is uncalled for?

By the way, to those that say that Earth, Fire, Air, Water, etc. are not real elements, allow me to respond that--at least at some point of human development--they totally were. Greek philosophers identified the four mentioned above as the building bricks of all matter. They also included a fifth element (in Latin, quinta essentia or quintessence, which the Greeks called Aether, a prophetic forerunner of modern-day consmologists' Dark Matter. More to the point, Aether is a definite reference pointing to the inspiration for SE's elements and the current game's cosmogony.)

If later science found the Classical Elements to be a rather simplistic model, the beauty of this simplicity and structural elegance, guided later scientists and the scientific mind in the search of the fundamental materials of the world. So let's treat the simple elemental scheme with pride, and honor it as a forerunner of the hyper-complex building-block theories in today's Nuclear Physic's and Cosmology.

Many centuries of scientific development later we have compiled a somewhat more complicated elemental table, which is now beyond doubt, thanks to the scientific method and its experimental demonstrations. And yet, the initial, fundamental concept of the "elements" was advanced by the classical philosophers all those centuries ago, in classical antiquity. They, the inventors of our systems of thought, who named these basic substances as Water, Air, Fire, and Earth, would have recognized the patterns in these games. Adding a few more elements to make it more practical for gaming purposes doesn't sound that out of bounds.

R

[Starlord]

So what are you saying...? That there's a satisfying sense of structure, consistent with itself and discernible in other manifestations of the world, that somehow explains the rather ambiguous current elemental structure? Are you saying that criticism of the current system is uncalled for?

By the way, to those that say that Earth, Fire, Air, Water, etc. are not real elements, allow me to respond that--at least at some point of human development--they totally were. Greek philosophers identified the four mentioned above as the building bricks of all matter. They also included a fifth element (in Latin, quinta essentia or quintessence, which the Greeks called Aether, a prophetic forerunner of modern-day consmologists' Dark Matter. More to the point, Aether is a definite reference pointing to the inspiration for SE's elements and the current game's cosmogony.)

If later science found the Classical Elements to be a rather simplistic model, the beauty of this simplicity and structural elegance, guided later scientists and the scientific mind in the search of the fundamental materials of the world. So let's treat the simple elemental scheme with pride, and honor it as a forerunner of the hyper-complex building-block theories in today's Nuclear Physic's and Cosmology.

Many centuries of scientific development later we have compiled a somewhat more complicated elemental table, which is now beyond doubt, thanks to the scientific method and its experimental demonstrations. And yet, the initial, fundamental concept of the "elements" was advanced by the classical philosophers all those centuries ago, in classical antiquity. They, the inventors of our systems of thought, who named these basic substances as Water, Air, Fire, and Earth, would have recognized the patterns in these games. Adding a few more elements to make it more practical for gaming purposes doesn't sound that out of bounds.

R

Again this is a Final Fantasy ( a Fictional world) Myself nor anyone else, shouldn't think that everything in real life has to be 100% Real... :/

[Rutelor]

Again this is a Final Fantasy ( a Fictional world) Myself nor anyone else, shouldn't think that everything in real life has to be 100% Real... :/

All I'm saying is that good fiction tends to have rules as strict as reality's. They might not be as many, but all good writers and creators create consistent worlds with inner logic. Go and revise your favorite imaginary worlds.

That's all I'm saying. Or you think it's just blowing air into a tube what makes bottles?

Anyway, I don't understand why so many people are bothered by this criticism. If you don't see a reason for it, you might very well ignore it. It's rather constructive, and it won't hurt you, or the game.

R

[Wolfie]

So what are you saying...? That there's a satisfying sense of structure, consistent with itself and discernible in other manifestations of the world, that somehow explains the rather ambiguous current elemental structure? Are you saying that criticism of the current system is uncalled for?

Yes, I'm exactly saying that the criticism is uncalled for and baseless. There already is structure to it, and it's not satisfying to the people complaining about it because it doesn't conform to the structure that they've already convinced themselves is the "best" structure. These things are completely arbitrary and subjective, and the Final Fantasy series as a whole doesn't adhere to any specific elemental wheel. It's complaining for the sake of complaining; or more accurately, complaining because this game doesn't directly rip from FFXI.

By the way, to those that say that Earth, Fire, Air, Water, etc. are not real elements, allow me to respond that--at least at some point of human development--they totally were. Greek philosophers identified the four mentioned above as the building bricks of all matter. They also included a fifth element (in Latin, quinta essentia or quintessence, which the Greeks called Aether, a prophetic forerunner of modern-day consmologists' Dark Matter. More to the point, Aether is a definite reference pointing to the inspiration for SE's elements and the current game's cosmogony.)

If later science found the Classical Elements to be a rather simplistic model, the beauty of this simplicity and structural elegance, guided later scientists and the scientific mind in the search of the fundamental materials of the world. So let's treat the simple elemental scheme with pride, and honor it as a forerunner of the hyper-complex building-block theories in today's Nuclear Physic's and Cosmology.

Many centuries of scientific development later we have compiled a somewhat more complicated elemental table, which is now beyond doubt, thanks to the scientific method and its experimental demonstrations. And yet, the initial, fundamental concept of the "elements" was advanced by the classical philosophers all those centuries ago, in classical antiquity. They, the inventors of our systems of thought, who named these basic substances as Water, Air, Fire, and Earth, would have recognized the patterns in these games. Adding a few more elements to make it more practical for gaming purposes doesn't sound that out of bounds.

R

The similarities between FFXIV's elements and the elements that the Greeks proposed is superficial at best, and it's a completely irrelevant point because this game is not set in Ancient Greece and is not based on their mythological (and then scientific) writings. The Greeks didn't have an 'elemental wheel', and people didn't possess an inherent 'element', causing them to be weak to another element. The only parallel you can draw between FFXIV's elements and the Greek elements are names and maybe in concept; but all that Greek science and philosophy goes out the window when you throw in your own elements.