Fix the Elemental Wheel

[Starlord]

I didn't use in this instance, nor do I ever use the word 'realistic' as you are using it, in posts in these forums. I dread it, actually.

So in that we agree.

R

All I'm saying is that good fiction tends to have rules as strict as reality's

Imagination has no rules nor boundaries, We the people may not write down, what our imaginations are saying.. but we all do have imagination to some degree.

in anyrate I can't wait to die 10000059890850930505 times to Garuda tomorrow!! :P

[Vanguard319]

Water doesn't cause fire to spread in any way. Fire dies when it's not exposed to oxygen (wind), which is what water does, it smothers it so it can't use the oxygen in the air (wind) as one of it's chemical reagents. Though the same thing can be said of earth, that would also smother fire. But you don't see firefighters spraying sand on housefires. You also don't see them using compressed air.

Perhaps not, but firefighters sometimes use explosives to put out certain types of fires (i.e. certain chemical fires that would react to water/foam), the shockwave literally removes all the immediate oxygen in the area, (sometimes the fuel as well.) snuffing out the flames.

or to simplify: wind kills fire.

Edit: I forgot to mention this but you don't necessarily need plain oxygen to keep a fire going, the correct term is oxidizing agent. (for example, many chlorates are even more reactive than oxygen and will often ignite on contact with anything combustible, and could be the kind of chemical fire that can't be extingushed by conventional means.)

[Valmonte]

What you have is a Dual chart (Weak-Partialy Weak) setup, however its incomplete.

The old FFXI chart was easier to work with and easier to understand, i have no idea why they decided to swap it up.

here's FFXI's chart:


This is what we Have now:

[Wynn]

What you have is a Dual chart (Weak-Partialy Weak) setup, however its incomplete.

The original chart was easier to work with and easier to under stand, i have no idea why they decided to swap it up.

here's the original chart:


This is what we Have now:

Saying the first chart is the original chart is misleading, though I'm sure that was not your intention.

To clarify: The first chart is the elemental relationship wheel from XI. The second chart is the elemental relationship wheel for XIV and is what we have always had for this game.

[Soukyuu]

You do realize that almost every FF game has had different element rules than the last, right? And that element weakness wasn't determined on an Element > Element basis, but Element > Creature Type basis, right?

I played ffviii, ffix and ffx, so I am basing my opinion on those 3 games. And from what I remember, they all had the same elemental system.

It's complaining for the sake of complaining; or more accurately, complaining because this game doesn't directly rip from FFXI.

No, it's not. It might surprise you, but not everyone has played ffxi. I never touched it. Still, the elemental wheel(s) of ffxiv do not make sense to me, while in the 3 ff games I played, it did.

No, I don't see fire taking damage from wind, there are more chances of water quenching the fire than wind doing so. Else we'd use fans to quench fire, not water.

And even if you pull the "it's magic" card, it's not about realism, it's about intuition. The first thing to come into mind when fighting fire is water, it's elemental opposite being ice. The first thing coming in mind as opposite of earth is air (=wind) not... whatever it is now.

A well designed system is intuitive - you do not have to waste time trying to figure out how the system works, which should be the goal of any software developer.

[VanishingSasquatch]

There is also a piece of lore located in game (can't remember at this time) that states that the 2 elemental triangles are also aligned themselves. One set of 3 is aligned as Astral and the other is Umbral. So even if you spell isn't directly opposed to the element your hitting, at least its effectiveness is increased due to Astral/Umbral properties.

[Wolfie]

I played ffviii, ffix and ffx, so I am basing my opinion on those 3 games. And from what I remember, they all had the same elemental system.

No, it's not. It might surprise you, but not everyone has played ffxi. I never touched it. Still, the elemental wheel(s) of ffxiv do not make sense to me, while in the 3 ff games I played, it did.

No, I don't see fire taking damage from wind, there are more chances of water quenching the fire than wind doing so. Else we'd use fans to quench fire, not water.

And even if you pull the "it's magic" card, it's not about realism, it's about intuition. The first thing to come into mind when fighting fire is water, it's elemental opposite being ice. The first thing coming in mind as opposite of earth is air (=wind) not... whatever it is now.

A well designed system is intuitive - you do not have to waste time trying to figure out how the system works, which should be the goal of any software developer.

Again, its only "intuitive" to you because you've already come with preconceived notions of which element beats which, based on... who knows what. All the FF games you listed had different elemental rules for the most part. None of this is realistic, therefore "intuition" means very little.

In the Pokemon world, water beats both earth and fire; and it's "intuitive" there if you've played those games. Otherwise, it doesn't feel "intuitive", because the concept of an elemental type does not exist outside of the game. The same is true for the FFXI/FFXIV elemental wheel. Fire is extinguished by water, wind and earth; water is buried by earth, boiled by fire, and evaporated by wind; etc. There is no "wheel" of anything in real life.

If you play FFXIV long enough and stop trying to compare it to other games, the two elemental triangles we have now become "intuitive." They have for me, it will happen to you too.

[Lux_Rayna]

If you play FFXIV long enough and stop trying to compare it to other games, the two elemental triangles we have now become "intuitive." They have for me, it will happen to you too.

I can't believe you're still trying to reason with this thread >_> you lost from the moment it was created. The minute the OP laid that post down, he said: "this is what it is and to hell with anything else". More or less your efforts are in vain. You gotta give it to em straight like this:

Two small wheels is no more confusing than one big wheel; if you can't see this you should try pulling your head out of your rear. Period. End of discussion. Its fantasy so there is no "supposed to be this way". Disagree you can stfu cuz its not your world, your lore, or any of that. Think im trolling? Every FF game has had a different elemental wheel. Thats right. And what is this? A different FF game. What does that mean? You're so intelligent, I'm sure you can put your big boy pants on and think it through. I'll give you a hint: It means FFXIV will have a different elemental wheel. Get it? Got it? Good.

On to the next one!

[Wolfie]

I can't believe you're still trying to reason with this thread >_> you lost from the moment it was created. The minute the OP laid that post down, he said: "this is what it is and to hell with anything else". More or less your efforts are in vain. You gotta give it to em straight like this:

Two small wheels is no more confusing than one big wheel; if you can't see this you should try pulling your head out of your rear. Period. End of discussion. Its fantasy so there is no "supposed to be this way". Disagree you can stfu cuz its not your world, your lore, or any of that. Think im trolling? Every FF game has had a different elemental wheel. Thats right. And what is this? A different FF game. What does that mean? You're so intelligent, I'm sure you can put your big boy pants on and think it through. I'll give you a hint: It means FFXIV will have a different elemental wheel. Get it? Got it? Good.

On to the next one!

It's f**king killing me. This topic feels like the electrolytes sketch from Idiocracy. It's like people don't understand that there's no traditional definition of intuition in play here, there is no standard, the reason and logic behind strengths and weaknesses is highly ambiguous, and that they don't understand their own reasons for wanting this changed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Vw2CrY9Igs

[Lux_Rayna]

It's f**king killing me. This topic feels like the electrolytes sketch from Idiocracy. It's like people don't understand that there's no traditional definition of intuition in play here, there is no standard, the reason and logic behind strengths and weaknesses is highly ambiguous, and that they don't understand their own reasons for wanting this changed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Vw2CrY9Igs

It has electrolytes D:<