Fine, Bloodwhetting is too OP

[Connor]

I've told you already and presented with solid data you can find yourself, they can nerf BW and tank sustain, you will still have to deal with the same issues. The downsides are greater than the upsides.

Isn’t this only considered the downside for tanks though?

If you nerf tank sustain then there are downsides, for the tank . For the healer though that literally just means not having 90% of your toolkit be functionally redundant .

I still feel like everyone’s looking at things purely from a savage/ultimate perspective. Having powerful tank sustain and dps support healing is great when the enemies output actual damage . The sad fact is they simply don’t though. We’re honestly at a point where I can literally ignore the tank for entire dungeons outside of like a couple Protractions and have the fairy do the rest.

Nerfing tank sustain in a vacuum wouldn’t do anything, I’ll grant that. But adjusting tank sustain, healing output, and damage output in content to actually be even remotely proportionate to the insanely powerful toolkits we have? Things like Bloodwhetting would be good abilities if they were ever actually proportionate to the damage output. But the fact is they’re all way beyond the paltry damage amounts most content outputs. Literally the only downside to that is ‘tanks and healers might have to exert an infinitesimal effort’ which I mean, maybe it’s about time…

[PyurBlue]

Nice strawman you have here.
They were pointing out the thousands of posts that don't matter.

What strawman? In that discussion it was stated multiple times that unless people stop playing, nothing matters. So it very much looks like dpsguy's view is that dissatisfaction and feedback doesn't matter until players quit.

I've also pointed out that even if you nerf tank sustain to the ground, you would still use only half your kit, remember?

And for the entire discussion it was agreed that BW isn't the problem with healing. It's just a big problem with healing. Tank sustain to that level shouldn't exist, it makes no sense and it's no fun to play with as a healer. We could fix the other problems with healing, but BW would remain a problem just as it is now, so either way BW has to be fixed. It is without a doubt the most problematic ability in dungeons.

That's exactly my critic, you act as if there was only one way to fix the healer problem and put all the blame on BW/Tank sustain.

When? In the very post you quoted Supersnow mentioned healer DPS rotations, one of the other problems that everyone is aware of and wants fixed, along with problems like BW.

But you're not trying to fix a trinity or make the game funnier for healers, you're simply trying to save your ego.

I guess BW is just tank (WAR?) ego then and not important. So let's not put tank ego ahead of making the game better.

Here's some facts you try to avoid at any cost that goes against your boogeyman:
-In a whole dungeon DPS and healers takes around 300k~700k unmitigated damages over 12~14 minutes, DPS HP can easily go beyond 100k and even reach 150k.
-SMN, SAM, DNC, RPR, VPR, RDM and MNK mitigation+healing can cover way more than 700k damage, making them able to self heal.

What do we do, ask them to not use their healing tools? Nerf them to the ground as well? How many more are we going to nerf until you're satisfied?

Tanks mainly since they're the problem and not DPS. Tanks are the ones taking damage most of the time, and they are unique in that they tend to take sustained damage that is different from occasional party damage.

Though if DPS or support tools end up being as detrimental as BW they should be adjusted to a reasonable state.

We wouldn't be here talking about Bloodwhetting if dungeons were doing significant AoE that requires healing.

WAR healing would still be overpowered and out of place. It would be the same. WAR's would stick out compared to other tanks and require significantly less healing because they are basically self sufficient. And throwing out AoE's constantly isn't much of a solution when single target healing skills are a large part of healer ability sets. We're just supposed to cast Medica II all the time now and Cure, Benefic, ED, Excog, etc are just whatever? I think the game works well when there is some variety between tank healing and partywide healing and I don't see why we have to give that up to satisfy tank ego.

[dspguy]

In that discussion it was stated multiple times that unless people stop playing, nothing matters. So it very much looks like dpsguy's view is that dissatisfaction and feedback doesn't matter until players quit.
.

Someone gets it.

And it is dspguy, not dpsguy. I'm not that arrogant to claim a handle like that

[CKNovel]

Who said I was talking about dungeons. These problems go all the way up into savage. I looked at a log of mine from my raid main for M3 just then and 57% of the healing the WAR received came from themselves, I as the SGE contributed 20%, the AST contributed 18% and the rest was the DPS. Of that 20% I contributed 19.1% came from AOE heals that just happened to hit the WAR.

Well yes, you're supposed to heal the party not limit yourself to the WAR.

Tanks takes the same damage as DPS, the main difference comes from tank busters and very spread out auto attacks. You can observe the discrepancy by looking at the offtank who takes less damage than everyone else even despite sharing the tank buster.

But go ahead, show me PF of players doing M3S with 4 tanks instead of 2 tanks/2heals. I'll even accept a minority, shows me the symptoms of the trinity crumbling instead of boogeymen.
I'll only answer to a worthwile proof, I'm tired of facing data manipulation, strawmen and boogeymen.

Isn’t this only considered the downside for tanks though?

It's a downside for the game as a whole, you're closing the door to jobs stepping out of their line while avoiding the core issue of the number game for the healers.
Tank are only allowed to tank, DPS are only allowed to DPS, Healers are only allowed to Heal.
Then we'll complain about how every job feels the same.

[PyurBlue]

Tank are only allowed to tank, DPS are only allowed to DPS, Healers are only allowed to Heal.
Then we'll complain about how every job feels the same.

Well at least in that case jobs would not feel the same since they'd fill different roles. On the individual job level this wouldn't create homogeny either, a very simple example would be a healer that can only shield versus a healer that can only regen. With tanks you could have a tank that mitigates versus a tank that turns large hits into DoTs that change how healing can be applied.

That's another topic though since no one is trying to strictly limit classes anyway. What people want is balance and this has been clarified more than once, so I'm not sure why you're trying to bring up points that no one is making.

[Supersnow845]

Well yes, you're supposed to heal the party not limit yourself to the WAR.

Tanks takes the same damage as DPS, the main difference comes from tank busters and very spread out auto attacks. You can observe the discrepancy by looking at the offtank who takes less damage than everyone else even despite sharing the tank buster.

But go ahead, show me PF of players doing M3S with 4 tanks instead of 2 tanks/2heals. I'll even accept a minority, shows me the symptoms of the trinity crumbling instead of boogeymen.
I'll only answer to a worthwile proof, I'm tired of facing data manipulation, strawmen and boogeymen.



It's a downside for the game as a whole, you're closing the door to jobs stepping out of their line while avoiding the core issue of the number game for the healers.
Tank are only allowed to tank, DPS are only allowed to DPS, Healers are only allowed to Heal.
Then we'll complain about how every job feels the same.

I am healing the party but I should be actually healing you as the tank not you healing yourself, your entire view is built on the fact that tanks should just be alone in the party doing whatever they want and that the rest of the party should be reliant on each other

YOU. SHOULD. DIE. IF. I. DONT. HEAL. YOU. JUST. LIKE. I. DIE. IF. YOU. DONT. TANK. FOR. ME

if you don’t agree with the above statement you aren’t even arguing anything relating to the trinity, you are arguing a weird reciprocal dichotomy between the healers and DPS while the tanks stands alone as being relied upon but never needing to rely on others. If that’s your view of tanks just admit it rather than dancing around it, because you still have yet to tell me even though I’ve alluded to it 4 times what tanks should actually rely on the other roles for. In a healthy trinity all 3 roles rely on each other, right now the tank relies on the healer for nothing

[Lyth]

The trinity is simply not applied.

The value that tanks and healers provide is entirely dependent on the existence of a trinity design. There are games that don't use a trinity, but in those games, everyone is a DPS.

you're supposed to heal the party not limit yourself to the WAR.

The interdependence between tanks and healers is central to how a trinity design works. In a traditional trinity design, if your tank doesn't mitigate effectively, or your healer doesn't keep your tank's HP above a critical threshold, then the tank dies and the rest of the team gets oneshot. This is why support roles were historically high value. I think FFXIV attracted a lot of skilled players to supports in ARR and Heavensward because you not only had this going on, but you also had the capability to do competitive damage through alternative gearing options and damage stances.

Over time, the game has shifted towards being a trinity design in name only. You have an undying tank that does underwhelming damage on a self-positioning boss with an understudy on standby in case they mess up, you have healers on standby hoping that they'll be paged in to fix any mistakes and tidy up any unaddressed damage, and then you have DPS doing the bulk of the high value gameplay. At this point, you might as well convert all jobs to DPS and give everyone DPS parity, so that everyone has equal value. Maybe you distribute a few raidwide defensives and heals to some more 'support-orientated' jobs, and then let the boss completely self-position. There are a number of MMOs that do this already. The only reason FFXIV doesn't do this openly is because they made a historical commitment to the trinity design approach years ago and now they can't openly change away from it. But it's in appearance only, and supports are the ones that lose out.

I think if you want to restore value to the support roles, they need to be interdependent again. That means toning back the self-sustain and mitigation inflation.

[TouchandFeel]

To me the main issues that make tanks no longer feel like as defined as a role is that power-creep was allowed to get out of hand, arguably because of a specific job which I think we can all easily identify, and that just set the tone for most of the other tanks to then not be allowed to fall too far behind. Rinse repeat that cycle over a decade and well, you see what happens. So ultimately we ended up with tanks being way too self-sufficient and too powerful defensively.
Couple that with player complaints over the years of jobs and/or content being too hard based on one-off bad experiences or players, leading to jobs and encounters being drastically simplified and you end up with jobs that basically play themselves.

Also, I feel there was a vast underestimation of the power of self-healing as a defensive tool where things like shields and % mitigation can reduce or at best nullify incoming damage but self-healing can potentially go beyond that and undo/recover damage that was done previously when the healing crosses that threshold of outpacing the rate of incoming damage. This makes it far more difficult to balance against other forms of defenses.

Healers then got screwed because with tanks being so powerful defensively, the whole point of the role basically got nullified. If your primary responsibility is to heal a specific player but that player can just keep their health up mostly by themselves, then what are you even there for?

First and foremost, to improve both tank and healer game-play, tanks need their defensive capabilities, mostly in the self-healing category, reduced.

Then for tanks, there needs to be more tank specific mechanics in fights asides from the occasional buster. More hard-hitting boss abilities targeting other players that the tank has to either pick-up or have to use their defensives they can target others with. More phases with adds or multiple bosses on the field at once. More forced tank swaps. More fights where boss positioning and/or location in the arena matters. You could have entire mechanics about the boss needing to be moved to changing parts of the arena such as something appearing in the arena that needs to be destroyed or it will explode and do a ton of damage but you can lead the boss over to and have it cast an AoE on you that if it hits the object it breaks it or does a bunch of damage to it to make breaking it way easier. Anyways, I could go on and on, but I think the point has been made.

As for healers, the part I mentioned for tanks about spreading the damage to other party members more that the tank has to help mitigate so that the party member will survive would also help the healer have more to do.

[Terhix]

Also, I feel there was a vast underestimation of the power of self-healing as a defensive tool where things like shields and % mitigation can reduce or at best nullify incoming damage but self-healing can potentially go beyond that and undo/recover damage that was done previously when the healing crosses that threshold of outpacing the rate of incoming damage. This makes it far more difficult to balance against other forms of defenses.

I think this is still true given the design of 40% mits: WAR got a total of 1500 potency hot, DRK got a 1200 potency excog, PLD got a 1000 potency shield. Roughly translates to shields being valued (or taxed, if you will) more than direct heals, which are valued more than heals over time. For tank busters this is generally true as shield can prevent you from dying where a heal will not if you were to drop to 0 without it in both scenarios, but for general attrition (be it autos in raids or damage from trash in dungeons) the overall potency is king.

Then for tanks, there needs to be more tank specific mechanics in fights asides from the occasional buster. More hard-hitting boss abilities targeting other players that the tank has to either pick-up or have to use their defensives they can other target others with. More phases with adds or multiple bosses on the field at once. More forced tank swaps. More fights where boss positioning and/or location in the arena matters. You could have entire mechanics about the boss needing to be moved to changing parts of the arena such as something appearing in the arena that needs to be destroyed or it will explode and do a ton of damage but you can lead the boss over to and have it cast an AoE on you that if it hits the object it breaks it or does a bunch of damage to it to make breaking it way easier. Anyways, I could go on and on, but I think the point has been made.

I really like the beam stack-markers that also have the tanks-in-front-or-people-might-die mechanic. If XIV stole the mechanic of autos applying a stacking debuff forcing a swap every now an then in savage, I reckon we'd also see much higher demand for general self-sustain balance across tanks, as right now it seems tanks are only balanced on two vectors: DPS and tank busters. There is also raid-wide mitigation, but given M3S exists I wouldn't say tanks are currently balanced in that aspect at all.

[AnjouMaaka]

Nah, Bloodwhetting is a result of healers not healing in dungeons, and Raw Intuition should become a tank role ability. Sorry not sorry. If you want it to be nerfed, tough luck. Healers prove day in and day out why Bloodwhetting never gets nerfed by having nothing better to do than grief dark knights all day in the duty finder.