Fine, Bloodwhetting is too OP

[Supersnow845]

As I've said, those are two different boogeymen.
Wake me up when Healers are kicked from parties and a significant chunk of the community wants to run 4 tanks in any content where the party role can be freely manipulated, that's the only criteria I ask for before I'll be for nerfs.
We've had real situation where WAR, PLD, MCH were barred from PF, this isn't one of them.

95+% of the parties play with 2 healers, even in unsynch'd EX Farm where everyone's HP massively increased.
That's a fact you can easily check yourself.

Just think 2 seconds, healers and physical range are scarce, if tanks were strictly better and so broken they replace healers, then why isn't PF just replacing the healing slot with healers? The answer is simple, people value more a balanced composition than 4 tanks.

You truly don’t see a problem with the mantra of “this is literally only a problem when PF shuts out healers”?

Stop and think for a second, square moves at a literal glacial pace, let’s say this situation actually came to pass, square has shown they can’t turn on a dime to fix this, that entire tier at the absolute least will just block out healers and there is a good chance the tier after that will as well since they will already be deep in the design phase, it’s also likely that PF will start considering strats for any future tiers that could also do it if square doesn’t actually attack the root of the problem which we know they almost never do. Letting something get to the complete non functional stage before trying to fix it when square moves as slow as they do would be a complete unmitigated disaster because they simply couldn’t fix it in any reasonable time. How would you feel if the situation was reversed. Healers going “I’m willing to sacrifice the entire tank role for 1/2 entire savage tiers before I’m ready to call for nerfs to my own role”

Like I said the only reason they haven’t done this anymore is not because “people value a balanced composition”, it’s because braindead strat videos haven’t told them how to do it how to do it without healers yet. Unsynced farm parties just want bodies, comp literally doesn’t matter at all

[CKNovel]

So nothing matters until things get so bad that the game is physically non functional?

Nice strawman you have here.
They were pointing out the thousands of posts that don't matter.

You truly don’t see a problem with the mantra of “this is literally only a problem when PF shuts out healers”?

No, I don't. Because it means your concerns aren't critical. You car can have something broken it doesn't mean you have to drop everything and fix it and won't ever snowball into a bigger problem.
I'm merely pointing out the boogeyman, how the healers on tank forum just blame tanks for their role not being fun, how the trinity is broken, how they'll get replaced...
You make it look more critical that it really is, which is just manipulation at this point.

We've had actual critical situations like ARR WAR, HW PLD, early SB MCH that were actually barred from PF and had emergency changes.

From the start I'm criticizing the exaggeration and nerf mentality, I've never said we shouldn't fix the Healer role.
It's the exact same thing with DRK, it's "fine", the job isn't broken but I expect changes.

[Supersnow845]

Nice strawman you have here.
They were pointing out the thousands of posts that don't matter.



No, I don't. Because it means your concerns aren't critical. You car can have something broken it doesn't mean you have to drop everything and fix it and won't ever snowball into a bigger problem.
I'm merely pointing out the boogeyman, how the healers on tank forum just blame tanks for their role not being fun, how the trinity is broken, how they'll get replaced...
You make it look more critical that it really is, which is just manipulation at this point.

We've had actual critical situations like ARR WAR, HW PLD, early SB MCH that were actually barred from PF and had emergency changes.

From the start I'm criticizing the exagerration and nerf mentality, I've never said we shouldn't fix the Healer role.
It's the exact same thing with DRK, it's "fine", the job isn't broken but I expect changes.

I like in every time you mention “actual critical situations where jobs were getting locked out” you explicitly choose to not mention the times healers were getting locked out as if you are trying to paint a picture that healers never get locked out when they regularly are due to balance decisions. But please go on with the whole “tanks are the actual victims here”

And circling back to your point on “I’m happy to change healers I just don’t believe in nerfs” hand you ever stopped to consider that the changes you deign to hand out to the healer role are not what healers actually want. I’ve read your posts. The little information you actually give beyond just constantly saying “x thing isn’t THAT broken” is basically the age old “don’t nerf tanks just give healers something else to do while I heal myself”

I. DONT. WANT. THAT, I’m the healer my primary job is to heal the person taking the most amount of damage- the tank. I want a more complex DPS rotation but I don’t want that to be the totality of what I do in situations where only the tank is being hit. If that was the case I’d queue as a well designed job; like pictomancer. I’m astounded at your inability to see this from the opposite perspective. Do you genuinely think “oh yeah it’s broken but it’s not broken enough that it should come at the expensive of my fun playing the broken class is something that’s a valid response to healers who are unhappy with the state of their role and have been offerings mountains of feedback for over half a decade”

As much as you don’t want any to believe it despite all the other problems healers have tanks immense healing and immortality DOES reduce my fun as a healer. In my eyes the trinity is broken in your favour and you are just downplaying it because you are the beneficiary party. You know what I did when SGE was getting locked out of DSR parties because SCH’s shields were so much more powerful- I called for SCH nerfs. My own main I called to be nerfed because I understand balance in this game sometimes means giving up my beneficiary position for another

[CKNovel]

I. DONT. WANT. THAT, I’m the healer my primary job is to heal the person taking the most amount of damage- the tank. I want a more complex DPS rotation but I don’t want that to be the totality of what I do in situations where only the tank is being hit.

No, your primary job is to heal the party.
But I do agree you should have more to heal in dungeons, I've made suggestions and brought dungeon data about that remember?
I've also pointed out that even if you nerf tank sustain to the ground, you would still use only half your kit, remember?

That's exactly my critic, you act as if there was only one way to fix the healer problem and put all the blame on BW/Tank sustain. That if we don't the trinity is in critical danger.
But you're not trying to fix a trinity or make the game funnier for healers, you're simply trying to save your ego.

Here's some facts you try to avoid at any cost that goes against your boogeyman:
-In a whole dungeon DPS and healers takes around 300k~700k unmitigated damages over 12~14 minutes, DPS HP can easily go beyond 100k and even reach 150k.
-SMN, SAM, DNC, RPR, VPR, RDM and MNK mitigation+healing can cover way more than 700k damage, making them able to self heal.

What do we do, ask them to not use their healing tools? Nerf them to the ground as well? How many more are we going to nerf until you're satisfied?
I haven't said "give healer something else to do while I heal myself", thought it's true I believe healer role should be more than managing HP.
I've said: "Give healer more healing to do for the party", you're free to re-read my posts about the way too low damage taken in dungeons.

We wouldn't be here talking about Bloodwhetting if dungeons were doing significant AoE that requires healing.

[Supersnow845]

No, your primary job is to heal the party.
But I do agree you should have more to heal in dungeons, I've made suggestions and brought dungeon data about that remember?
I've also pointed out that even if you nerf tank sustain to the ground, you would still use only half your kit, remember?

That's exactly my critic, you act as if there was only one way to fix the healer problem and put all the blame on BW/Tank sustain. That if we don't the trinity is in critical danger.
But you're not trying to fix a trinity or make the game funnier for healers, you're simply trying to save your ego.

Here's some facts you try to avoid at any cost that goes against your boogeyman:
-In a whole dungeon DPS and healers takes around 300k~700k unmitigated damages over 12~14 minutes, DPS HP can easily go beyond 100k and even reach 150k.
-SMN, SAM, DNC, RPR, VPR, RDM and MNK mitigation+healing can cover way more than 700k damage, making them able to self heal.

What do we do, ask them to not use their healing tools? Nerf them to the ground as well?
I haven't said "give healer something else to do while I heal myself", thought it's true I believe healer role should be more than managing HP.
I've said: "Give healer more healing to do for the party", you're free to re-read my posts about the way too low damage taken in dungeons.

We wouldn't be here talking about Bloodwhetting if dungeons were doing significant AoE that requires healing.

Last I checked the tank was part of the party. Why is the tank exempt from this. “The healers job is to heal the party not the tank” just reads as the tank wanting to be exempt from the party responsibility of relying on others but still having the rest of the party rely on them.

I don’t put all the blame on tank sustain, I put a hefty majority of the blame on tank sustain because it’s a hefty majority of the problem. You act like I’ve never viewed DPS sustain as a problem as well. I was the first one out there laughing at how overpowered SAM’s new defensive is or why the hell the DPS needed second wind upgrades or why SMN needed lux Solaris. I love how you go “the trinity isn’t broken see DPS can also replace the healer”. That isn’t an argument, that’s an admittance the trinity is beyond broken.

And again if all healing is random AOE healing the tank doesn’t care about then where is the single target healing being used.

Your entire point seems to boil down to “let ME do what I want while the DPS and healer rely on each other”. Tell me in this dynamic you are describing where are you relying on other party members, what are they doing that you can’t do because to me that reads far more as ego than healers not wanting the tanks to do their job for them

[CKNovel]

I don’t put all the blame on tank sustain, I put a hefty majority of the blame on tank sustain because it’s a hefty majority of the problem. You act like I’ve never viewed DPS sustain as a problem as well. I was the first one out there laughing at how overpowered SAM’s new defensive is or why the hell the DPS needed second wind upgrades or why SMN needed lux Solaris. I love how you go “the trinity isn’t broken see DPS can also replace the healer”. That isn’t an argument, that’s an admittance the trinity is beyond broken.

And again if all healing is random AOE healing the tank doesn’t care about then where is the single target healing being used.

Your entire point seems to boil down to “let ME do what I want while the DPS and healer rely on each other”.

The cool thing is that I can use the argument both ways thanks to the data I provided.
What if we removed all healing from DPS and tanks, only healers can heal? Well, healers still wouldn't make use of their full kit.
And then what will happen when people get gear, more defense and just destroy the trash before they have a chance to put the tank in danger? Do we nerf their damages now?

The trinity is simply not applied.
It's not in danger or anything, the dungeons are undertuned in a way that even if someone dies the party can easily recover without losing time or wiping.

I've told you already and presented with solid data you can find yourself, they can nerf BW and tank sustain, you will still have to deal with the same issues. The downsides are greater than the upsides.

[Supersnow845]

The cool thing is that I can use the argument both ways thanks to the data I provided.
What if we removed all healing from DPS and tanks, only healers can heal? Well, healers still wouldn't make use of their full kit.
And then what will happen when people get gear, more defense and just destroy the trash before they have a chance to put the tank in danger? Do we nerf their damages now?

The trinity is simply not applied.
It's not in danger or anything, the dungeons are undertuned in a way that even if someone dies the party can easily recover without losing time or wiping.

I've told you already and presented with solid data you can find yourself, they can nerf BW and tank sustain, you will still have to deal with the same issues. The downsides are greater than the upsides.

Who said I was talking about dungeons. These problems go all the way up into savage. I looked at a log of mine from my raid main for M3 just then and 57% of the healing the WAR received came from themselves, I as the SGE contributed 20%, the AST contributed 18% and the rest was the DPS. Of that 20% I contributed 19.1% came from AOE heals that just happened to hit the WAR

The healer kits are too strong but you are literally doing more healing than I am on yourself, that is completely ridiculous in a savage fight, dungeons are broken 8 ways from Sunday but let’s not pretend like this is just a dungeon issue. This savage problem can be applied to literally any single target content which is functionally anything besides dungeons.

In dungeons your argument basically boils down to “just because tank sustain isn’t healers only problem that means it absolutely doesn’t need to be fixed” which is a stupid argument. No one thing will ever constitute 100% of a problem, doesn’t mean you don’t tackle big easy to fix problems first