Fine, Bloodwhetting is too OP

[Shurrikhan]

SIO could be given the bloodwhetting treatment, no? Such that instead of a shield and regen it becomes a minor heal, say... 100 potency, per weaponskill used for everyone affected for a duration of ten seconds? That's still 400 potency per party member, which is enough to take the edge off most things even if it can't cover an entire mechanic.

Depends on our intended balance point. If we're nerfing DV, too, then sure. But 10% of a PLD's maximum health as a barrier is worth a lot more than 400 cure potency, let alone if only that healing is dealt over time (per weaponskill/spell) and only via offensive actions. Keep in mind that even 10% of the player's own HP (a third less than a tank's) is about equal to Shake it Off's 500 potency of healing.

[Alice_Rivers]

Depends on our intended balance point. If we're nerfing DV, too, then sure. But 10% of a PLD's maximum health as a barrier is worth a lot more than 400 cure potency, let alone if only that healing is dealt over time (per weaponskill/spell) and only via offensive actions. Keep in mind that even 10% of the player's own HP (a third less than a tank's) is about equal to Shake it Off's 500 potency of healing.

This is true, I do wonder if the disparity between tank HP and what raidwide damage can sensibly be set at makes it unreasonable to make things like Divine Veil tank HP based, TBN is coming up against a similar issue where it's getting harder to break because tank max HP is so high. I don't really know how to fix this other than a hybrid solution where increased enemy damage is involved.

<Snip>

Why does it have to be one or the other? The principle problem with WAR (it's insane healing scaling n target count) simply doesn't exist in raids where, as you say, it is just fine. Therefore the simplest fix I can see is to remove that scaling, boom, most egregious issue fixed, WAR mostly balanced in dungeons and raids won't notice the difference. There may be other things that don't stand out as much now because of how the job currently operates that get revealed as a result, I don't know, but if all the tanks operate on the same level with different play styles and identities (which is entirely possible to do) then the game's existing balancing mechanisms (namely instanced encounters and ilvl restrictions) can be used that much more effectively to maintain balance across both dungeons and raids equally rather than at the expense of the other.

[All_Nonsense]

Who really cares that a warrior can turn invincible for 6 seconds in a dungeon with the same trash pull we've been pulling for like 10 years now? Any class balanced around dungeon content is going to end up in the dumpster. It works fine in raid content and would utilize dev resources to "fix" a nothingburger problem while healer rotations continue to languish year over year. Focusing on taking self-sustain away from a single class isn't really going to solve what people think it will - it'll just increase the number of upset players by throwing the war mains in with everyone else. The time would be better spent workshopping a way to dig healers out of the boring and unengaging hole they've been thrown into. idk why people hyperfixate on tank sustain then turn around and complain about healer dps. You can only change one of those two.

[whiskeybravo]

Who really cares that a warrior can turn invincible for 6 seconds in a dungeon with the same trash pull we've been pulling for like 10 years now? Any class balanced around dungeon content is going to end up in the dumpster. It works fine in raid content and would utilize dev resources to "fix" a nothingburger problem while healer rotations continue to languish year over year. Focusing on taking self-sustain away from a single class isn't really going to solve what people think it will - it'll just increase the number of upset players by throwing the war mains in with everyone else. The time would be better spent workshopping a way to dig healers out of the boring and unengaging hole they've been thrown into. idk why people hyperfixate on tank sustain then turn around and complain about healer dps. You can only change one of those two.

I agree in the general sense. Unfortunately, if you consider that BW/Nascent being nearly equivalent to 3 benedictions on up to 2 different targets with a 25 sec cooldown (in dungeons, anyways), it is a valid target for complaints.

[All_Nonsense]

I agree in the general sense. Unfortunately, if you consider that BW/Nascent being roughly equivalent to 3 benedictions on up to 2 different targets with a 25 sec cooldown (in dungeons, anyways), it is a valid target for complaints.

If you have to use 3 benedictions in a dungeon, you got far bigger problems than the warrior being able to heal someone else on a trash pull where the tank should be the only person tanking damage - I'm just saying. The discourse around warrior sustain has become a caricature of proper job balancing feedback at this point and people are digging up fringe cases or theory crafting scenarios to support arguments that are flimsy at best. We all know that beating around the central point (healing as a role is just in a sad state of affairs and needs a total overhaul - not rework, overhaul) is only going to result in more patch-job job changes that make the game marginally better for others at best, and less fun to play at worst. We need to take a good honest look at how the healer gameplay satisfaction degraded to this point and think of a way to walk it back so people stop trying to re-invent the proverbial wheel for the entire tank role. Tank sustain has exacerbated the issue and drawn more attention to it - it's not the cause of it. We gotta treat the the ailment, not the symptom

[Supersnow845]

If you have to use 3 benedictions in a dungeon, you got far bigger problems than the warrior being able to heal someone else on a trash pull where the tank should be the only person tanking damage - I'm just saying. The discourse around warrior sustain has become a caricature of proper job balancing feedback at this point and people are digging up fringe cases or theory crafting scenarios to support arguments that are flimsy at best. We all know that beating around the central point (healing as a role is just in a sad state of affairs and needs a total overhaul - not rework, overhaul) is only going to result in more patch-job job changes that make the game marginally better for others at best, and less fun to play at worst. We need to take a good honest look at how the healer gameplay satisfaction degraded to this point and think of a way to walk it back so people stop trying to re-invent the proverbial wheel for the entire tank role. Tank sustain has exacerbated the issue and drawn more attention to it - it's not the cause of it. We gotta treat the the ailment, not the symptom

Why is tank sustain not considered a root cause of healer dissatisfaction

Healer satisfaction can be broadly split into two categories- satisfaction with the healing aspect and satisfaction with everything else (support, damage, self utility such as movement etc)

The problem of cratering healing satisfaction is primarily caused by two things- lack of damage and incredibly high tank sustain that renders healers healing near useless in anything below extremes

You can’t really tanks aren’t the problem; healers are your way out of the fact that there is functionally no way to make casual and mechanic heavy damage light high end content fun on a healer from the healing perspective with the current tank sustain. You might be able to improve the damage/utility side somewhat by just sacrificing the healers healing fun by giving it to the tanks and turning the healer into a support caster but that isn’t fixing the core of the healers problems

[All_Nonsense]

snip

I mean let's be honest. The base stuff is designed with the intention for 100% of the player base to clear it. Extremes and above, not so much. Think about the kind of people 100% encapsulates and Yoshi P has to make sure they keep paying their sub because it's a business at the end of the day, not an old boys club. I'll posit a different perspective for you, maybe we can find some middle ground here because you do make a good argument and I appreciate that:

- We have an ilvl problem. Think just recently to our middle heavyweight raid tier. The normals felt good to play, the attacks hit nice and hard, healers actually had something to do, and ilvl requirements were 685. They weren't hard but there was some meat to bite into. We now have people with 720-730 going in there and blowing Wicked Thunder to high heaven before she even gets to witch hunt. Every hit she puts out lands like a wet noodle and everyone is bored. Why is ilvl sync not narrowed down more? So the savage raiders can go blow up normal content when they're done with savages? This is especially bad in endgame dungeons. Just narrowing down the range of ilvl allowed into a dungeon would do so much for balance since you don't need healers if stuff can't kill you anymore.

- We have a complete lack of midcore content that effectively challenges casual players. When I'm in savage, I am running my mits and self-sustain wide-open and it feels like it's barely enough sometimes, especially if a healer dies or anything of that nature, and especially before everyone has their BiS builds. Likewise I don't mit a normal raid or dungeon boss' tank buster and it barely does a quarter of my health. Where's the in-between? It could be that we're hunting in the wrong direction and there's simply a lack of midcore content to satisfy the playerbase and the healers are the ones who feel that strain the most.

You *could* nerf tanks to hell, but now everyone else is upset with their jobs not feeling engaging enough and healing still sucks. This is why they didn't nerf picto and instead decided to ruin the dps check in the savage raids. It's quite a hole they've dug when you really get into the depths of that thought experiment. But it's a business, you can't start ripping things away or you're gonna lose subscribers. I think they have the right idea with tank sustain and dps mits and all that, it just falls back on my 2 broader counterarguments for your point: ilvl is too high for normal content, and healing kind of has to be easy for normal content just like tanking and dps is, which means there's a lack of the "in-between" content to challenge players. It's hardcore or baby mode, and it's become an issue. The discussion of how to fix healer gripes by bloating their rotation with dps skills, or butchering tank mitigations becomes an ouroboros eventually, and I think we've kinda hit that point.

[PyurBlue]

If you have to use 3 benedictions in a dungeon

You won't always have to. The problem is that you can. So in every case up to the point where things are so wrong that you need multiple Benedictions in a row, the healer is redundant. BW is terrible design.

[All_Nonsense]

BW is terrible design.

You're right. It needs to be upgraded to BW2 and AoE heal. If the same reskinned dungeon pulls aren't changed or that aspect of the gameplay updated, I could care less if they gave me 3 stacks of it so I never needed a healer in dungeons again. Most dungeon healers are dps mains trying to level their healer for the new achievement mount, so they don't know how to heal anyway. So many complaints about dungeon BW when dungeons are all just one-way hallways people spam for xp. BW is balanced in raids and works great in tandem with OT HOC or TBN so healers don't run out of mana trying to babysit auto-attacks, that's all that really matters at the end of the day. Good design unlike Cure 1, Freecure, and Glare spam

[Shurrikhan]

We gotta treat the the ailment, not the symptom.

Okay, apply the same warrant to any other role.

Let's say the game has ridiculously lenient DPS checks even in current content. Like, across the fight and average of half the Damage-Dealers could be dead and you'd still clear before enrage levels of lenient. Now, let's say, just as with WAR putting out 20-50% more sustain (its role-primary resource) than the 2nd place, one job does 20-50% more DPS than the rest of its role.

Now, let's say you want to fix this massive gamewide shortfall by making these DPS checks more strict.

Do you tune these tightened DPS checks around median performance, median meta comp performance, median performance excepting (as an outlier) the overpowered job, or the overpowered job?

Depending on your choice, you're left with something overtuned for all but one job, a situation that entices class stacking and then becomes undertuned in doing so (with challenge being opt-in or opt-out based on job selection, almost like a MiNE but for current content), a joke for the overpowered job, or basically impossible for all but the overpowered job, respectively.

Warrior's outputting far more sustain than other tanks and increasing sustain requirements are not distractions from another. Balancing Warrior's sustain to a less ridiculous lead in turn better allows us to increase sustain requirements as to improve healer gameplay without banning non-Warriors from any and every raid in which one can afford a delayed Tank LB3 or toskip it completely.

P.S. We already saw what refusing to nerf even a ~4 to 6% lead in dps over median output can do to damage requirements (rendering them the most lenient we've ever seen). Why would we think that a job having whopping 50% lead in sustain produced would be an insignificant concern in tuning sustain requirements?

Sidenote: Warrior's lead is presently only as "small" as it is because so much goes to overhealing. Increase the sustain requirements, and the reduced overhealing will, unless taking heal checks from 2 straight to 11, be worth more than their difference in %DR.

Tl;dr: You're asking to treat a burn when the man is still on fire and pretending that any concern with said fire is a distraction detrimental to the person's health. Putting out the flame is not sufficient in itself, but it is a necessary first step. Bringing Warrior sustain nearer to balance allows us to then talk about increasing sustain requirements without a Narnia-sized range between those targeted portions of GCDs required, etc., as seen with a Warrior vs. what's seen with non-Warriors.

That in turn allows us to theorize interactions, direct or indirect, between healing and offensive kit, to contextualize what kind of offensive space we can work with, and how much synergy in cognitive load might exist between GCD attacks and GCD heals.