Fine, Bloodwhetting is too OP

[CKNovel]

Healerless current-tier savage clears have entered the chat...

Healerless is an exception and wasn't because of Bloodwhetting.

It was because:
-3 Paladins could cover DPS and invuln tank buster/share
-Clemency, it was used contrary to what the video title implied.
-Massive delays and unoptimized DPS rotation to optimize the heal instead
-DPS were chosen among those who have a high capability of healing
-The group had players of an exceptional level who knows their jobs and perfectly planned their mitigation.

This isn't something you'll see in PF or related in any shape or form to Bloodwhetting. If you delete Clemency or Cover this is suddenly impossible to pull.

Similar to TOP, this is a different Boogeyman where the potential of jobs is pushed to the extreme even if it means losing DPS.

[Supersnow845]

Healerless is an exception and wasn't because of Bloodwhetting.

It was because:
-3 Paladins could cover DPS and invuln tank buster/share
-Clemency, it was used contrary to what the video title implied.
-Massive delays and unoptimized DPS rotation to optimize the heal instead
-DPS were chosen among those who have a high capability of healing
-The group had players of an exceptional level who knows their jobs and perfectly planned their mitigation.

This isn't something you'll see in PF or related in any shape or form to Bloodwhetting. If you delete Clemency or Cover this is suddenly impossible to pull.

Similar to TOP, this is a different Boogeyman where the potential of jobs is pushed to the extreme even if it means losing DPS.

“Even if it means losing DPS”

Honey they had a top 100 competitive kill time, they weren’t struggling with DPS in the slightest

[CKNovel]

“Even if it means losing DPS”

Honey they had a top 100 competitive kill time, they weren’t struggling with DPS in the slightest

They replaced 2 healers with 2 tanks. Tanks deals 3~4k more damage than healers. I'm letting you math the rest.
I'm talking about individual performance, you're looking at party DPS. On top of that, remind yourself they are not your random Joes, they eat Ultimate content for breakfast.
This is similar to speedrun, making a mistake on purpose to gain benefit from it, which you wouldn't see in a "normal" setting.

And the rest of the list remains valid, you're nitpicking again, "honey".

[Supersnow845]

They replaced 2 healers with 2 tanks. Tanks deals 3~4k more damage than healers. I'm letting you math the rest.
I'm talking about individual performance, you're looking at party DPS. On top of that, remind yourself they are not your random Joes, they eat Ultimate content for breakfast.
This is similar to speedrun, making a mistake on purpose to gain benefit from it, which you wouldn't see in a "normal" setting.

And the rest of the list remains valid, you're nitpicking again, "honey".

So they were willing to take slight personal loses to facilitate better healing knowing the tanks do 30% more damage than the healers………just because and you don’t see that as a problem

Slight changes in individual performance of the dps jobs is meaningless when it can be compensated by the tanks doing 30% more damage just because they exist

“These aren’t random joes”, they literally had cactbot running the entire time, followed a genetic mit plan and still had 2 deaths. They are the definition of an average static Joe

[CKNovel]

So they were willing to take slight personal loses to facilitate better healing knowing the tanks do 30% more damage than the healers………just because and you don’t see that as a problem

Slight changes in individual performance of the dps jobs is meaningless when it can be compensated by the tanks doing 30% more damage just because they exist

“These aren’t random joes”, they literally had cactbot running the entire time, followed a genetic mit plan and still had 2 deaths. They are the definition of an average static Joe

I'm impressed at your boldness to call players who do world prog and speedclear "average Static Joe".
For your information, they also cleared E4S without healers, 2 years before tanks got EW extra sustain.

Anyway, I don't see the average joes doing M4S without healers. If it was indeed better to run 3 PLD and a WAR, PF and statics would do it. But they don't.
I don't even find any other parties who even attempted to do this, could you provide those run for me?

[Supersnow845]

I'm impressed at your boldness to call players who do world prog and speedclear "average Static Joe".
For your information, they also cleared E4S without healers, 2 years before tanks got EW extra sustain.

Anyway, I don't see the average joes doing M4S without healers. If it was indeed better to run 3 PLD and a WAR, PF and statics would do it. But they don't.
I don't even find any other parties who even attempted to do this, could you provide those run for me?

Nobody else does these runs because the vast majority stick to the limitations of PF and DF seeing it as simpler.

We all know for example running any non DRK tank in a dungeon with 3 DPS is objectively better than running it with a healer. That’s just a straight fact. Yet why do 99% of people do dungeon runs with a healer……..because DF says you need a healer. You can up your damage by 6k subbing out your 2 healers for 2 more tanks in M4S and your mitigation plan is tighter but not TOP healerless tight, 99% of people still run with 2 healers…………because PF defaults to a standard comp and strat videos don’t exist for these types of clears by people like joonbob.

The only reason this doesn’t become standard is because there hasn’t been that sort of push that shoves it into the mainstream. If they made a mechanic tomorrow that frustrated PF like light rampart then a creator like joonbob released a new “braindead” strat video where you could sub the healers for 4 tanks short mitting the DPS during the mechanic and also wiping out the DPS check by gaining a free 6k DPS healers would be out on their asses faster than yoshi p could buff succor thinking that would solve the problem. It’s basically a wider version of the problem SGE had in 6.0 when the entire community was like “SGE’s shields are really weak if a mechanic can be shield cheesed SGE will be gone from PF”. In asphodelos there was no shield cheesable mechanics, but DSR had one, you can overmit meteors and just remove half of phase 2. And what do you know SGE got instantly deleted from DSR parties exactly as predicted when it became more convenient to use another classes overpowered skill than it was to continue to equally tolerate both shield healers

The current tenuous state shows how overpowered the tanks are and healers hold on functionally by nature of there just not being a mechanic that shoves PF to actually embrace the change of dumping the healers. But if it comes (and the current trend of how fast and easily we are clearing new floors without healers as time goes by shows it is coming) then PF will just close out healers

PS if it’s true they cleared E4S without healers while current that is an achievement. I was probably a bit overly rude there (especially as I know they are more talented than me) but I genuinely didn’t see something incredibly praise worthy in that M4 clear, it was cactbot infested, sloppy and their posted mit plan really isn’t that tight, it genuinely reads like an Omni blue parsing static average clear

[CKNovel]

Nobody else does these runs because the vast majority stick to the limitations of PF and DF seeing it as simpler.

PS if it’s true they cleared E4S without healers while current that is an achievement. I was probably a bit overly rude there (especially as I know they are more talented than me) but I genuinely didn’t see something incredibly praise worthy in that M4 clear, it was cactbot infested, sloppy and their posted mit plan really isn’t that tight, it genuinely reads like an Omni blue parsing static average clear

Savage don't use DF, they use PF and can freely manipulate the roles. I also have to see advanced static doing this to get easier reclear, but they don't. It's only that group who did this feat.
I only read you doing a lot of mental gymnastic to avoid the conclusion that this group is an exception among exceptions.

Considering they're also behind the No-Healer TOP and TOP mitig plan is the tighest we've ever seen, I can confirm to you that this group is a complete different class of players, even with any 3rd party.
Raidwide used to hit so hard PLD and MCH were very popular because of the extra mitigation, despite them being among the least popular jobs in high-end content.

[Supersnow845]

What you call mental gymnastics I call “trying to fit within tank mains ridiculously specific criteria for what actually justifies tanks being overpowered” especially when you can’t even be consistent. You on the rebalance WAR thread argued bloodwhetting is fine because you say it only warps dungeon content, then when something like this is done it’s also fine because it’s not PF standard. Either tanks healing warps all content in which your justification for BW being okay to be OP in dungeons falls apart or tanks are only OP in dungeons which means this clear shouldn’t have been possible. It’s hilarious to me how many different requirements you have to meet before you will even consider the idea your role is overpowered and warping the game design

This never should have been remotely possible. Full stop. Bringing no healers should wipe you within 30 seconds like bringing no tanks does. A feat like this being possible shows how ridiculously low the healing needed is and how strong the tanks healing is (and don’t even bother with the “it’s an encounter design problem just up damage” because tanks will go right back to complaining they have to rely on the healer). Show me a week 2 tankless clear of M4S. It’s a “great feat” isn’t it, not a representation of how broken the trinity is, nooooo it’s an achievement that can be done if you try hard enough.

If you don’t want me playing mental gymnastics trying to fit your ridiculous criteria then stop having ridiculous criteria. Tanks are overpowered and healers are garbage. That’s always been my point. I don’t particularly care about these people, I don’t see this as a fear worthy of praise. To me this is just having all the problems of my role shoved into my face while tank mains tie the goal posts to a rocket on what constitutes a valid example of tanks being overpowered

[Ramiee]

They replaced 2 healers with 2 tanks. Tanks deals 3~4k more damage than healers.

So yeah, replacing healers with Tanks is a better option. If only they made it impossible to clear without healers and made healers do as much damage as tanks so dropping them for extra dps wouldn't be a thing sadly these two things are impossible to do.

[PyurBlue]

I'll never understand people seeing these things as personal slights against their role of choice, as opposed to a praiseworthy achievement by players of incredible skill.

It is an achievement for the players, while also being the result of poor game design. That you can optimize healers out of a fight isn't exciting for me when I want to play healer.