M4S has officially been beaten without healers in week 2

[Supersnow845]

If they really don’t want to actually raise the amount of healing needed to clear these fights so that tanks healing is doing the job for the healers why don’t they just as a bandaid flip tank and healer damage profiles

Right now tanks do 30% more damage than healers and as they are melee with zero uptime concerns they have the narrowest IQR’s. Just flip their damage amount with healers so that even if you can do this with 4 tanks and 4 DPS it’s just overall worse DPS than doing it with a standard comp

This clear had 2 deaths and 4 failed mechanics and was still a competitive speed kill because at this point the tank to healer DPS discrepancy is barely smaller than the tank DPS discrepancy

[Bobby66]

If they really don’t want to actually raise the amount of healing needed to clear these fights so that tanks healing is doing the job for the healers why don’t they just as a bandaid flip tank and healer damage profiles

Right now tanks do 30% more damage than healers and as they are melee with zero uptime concerns they have the narrowest IQR’s. Just flip their damage amount with healers so that even if you can do this with 4 tanks and 4 DPS it’s just overall worse DPS than doing it with a standard comp

This clear had 2 deaths and 4 failed mechanics and was still a competitive speed kill because at this point the tank to healer DPS discrepancy is barely smaller than the tank DPS discrepancy

Tbh sure that works, but that does nothing to solve engagement still be the same amount of buttons.

[Supersnow845]

Tbh sure that works, but that does nothing to solve engagement still be the same amount of buttons.

Never said it would, this is just a Bandaid fix to cut this problem of tanks just being better healers in high end content off at the knees

Healers are still a mess regardless

[Bobby66]

Never said it would, this is just a Bandaid fix to cut this problem of tanks just being better healers in high end content off at the knees

Healers are still a mess regardless

See, I think that is why some people are also against this idea behind the strike cause of comments like this. I get the intent, but to some it may just come off as whelp tanks should suffer for a little if we have to suffer. That is never a fun look.

I still don't understand why they allow tanks to do their job for entirely no damage loss while giving them more damage output than the healer role.

Meanwhile, healers are designed to take an expected loss during progression but their designated maximum damage output is less than the tanks.

The design needs to make sense.

This is true, I am not sure why they did away with stances. When you had a group that refuses to use aggro dumps or if you were under geared as a tank you were forced to still in tank stance and give up damage. It took a group effort for the tank to use their full damage. As how it was with healers at one point as the team progressed the fights healers were able to maximize their overall DPS uptime.

Never understood why they moved away from this, but alas from a numbers POV it might be hard point to prove against cause maybe their metrics show that people like this idk.

[Supersnow845]

See, I think that is why some people are also against this idea behind the strike cause of comments like this. I get the intent, but to some it may just come off as whelp tanks should suffer for a little if we have to suffer. That is never a fun look.

This just circles back to the problem of “you just want tanks to suffer”- okay present an idea to fix healers that doesn’t affect tanks in any way.

-nerf tank sustain-> nope affects tanks
-up damage-> nope nerfs tank sustain by proxy
-flip tank and healer damage-> nope tanks do less damage
-give healers something else to do-> nope doesn’t actually fix healers problem
-give healers DPS rotations but don’t change healing-> nope doesn’t fix healer problems

If you are trying to drive sympathy for tanks “oh think of the poor tanks it’s not their fault healers are shit” then please present a way to fix healers that won’t make tanks unhappy in one way or another. To me personally who plays tanks and enjoys them a lot flipping their damage profile is probably the least egregious balancing way to me because while you can feel the damage difference in an enrage setting moment to moment gameplay you don’t really notice a difference between tank and healing damage

[Bobby66]

This just circles back to the problem of “you just want tanks to suffer”- okay present an idea to fix healers that doesn’t affect tanks in any way.

-nerf tank sustain-> nope affects tanks
-up damage-> nope nerfs tank sustain by proxy
-flip tank and healer damage-> nope tanks do less damage
-give healers something else to do-> nope doesn’t actually fix healers problem
-give healers DPS rotations but don’t change healing-> nope doesn’t fix healer problems

If you are trying to drive dump that for tanks “oh think of the poor tanks it’s not their fault healers are shit” then please present a way to fix healers that won’t make tanks unhappy in one way or another

That is my point someone will always be unhappy, but to openly say x should have to suffer because y does is not really the best way to go about getting support imo. End of the day someone is going to get the short end of the stick, it is just a matter of picking who that will be. All jokes aside it seems SE has be loud and clear who they want to get the short end of the stick.

Edit: As a tank I would gladly give up our damage if they made aggro something we had a to manage again outside of just throw on a tank stance and ignore it. As an example, I wish they would add more mechanics that use both tanks in interesting ways.

I bet many other tanks would not want to give up their damage but damage is not why I personally play tank.

[Aravell]

That is my point someone will always be unhappy, but to openly say x should have to suffer because y does is not really the best way to go about getting support imo. End of the day someone is going to get the short end of the stick, it is just a matter of picking who that will be. All jokes aside it seems SE has be loud and clear who they want to get the short end of the stick.

I just want to point out that it's not a requirement that someone gets the short stick. In an ideal world, we'd have a trinity system where all 3 parts get a mid-length stick.

What we're stuck with now is tanks getting the long stick, DPS getting a mid-length stick, and both the tanks and the DPS are still trying to take more from the healers short stick. They do need to rebalance the sticks or the healer will be left with no stick at all.

[Lak14]

That is my point someone will always be unhappy, but to openly say x should have to suffer because y does is not really the best way to go about getting support imo. End of the day someone is going to get the short end of the stick, it is just a matter of picking who that will be. All jokes aside it seems SE has be loud and clear who they want to get the short end of the stick.

Edit: As a tank I would gladly give up our damage if they made aggro something we had a to manage again outside of just throw on a tank stance and ignore it. As an example, I wish they would add more mechanics that use both tanks in interesting ways.

I bet many other tanks would not want to give up their damage but damage is not why I personally play tank.

sir, you dont even raid.

[Supersnow845]

That is my point someone will always be unhappy, but to openly say x should have to suffer because y does is not really the best way to go about getting support imo. End of the day someone is going to get the short end of the stick, it is just a matter of picking who that will be. All jokes aside it seems SE has be loud and clear who they want to get the short end of the stick.

Edit: As a tank I would gladly give up our damage if they made aggro something we had a to manage again outside of just throw on a tank stance and ignore it. As an example, I wish they would add more mechanics that use both tanks in interesting ways.

I bet many other tanks would not want to give up their damage but damage is not why I personally play tank.

Where did I say I specifically wanted tanks to suffer

I said that it would cut off this healerless speed kill meta at the knees because bringing extra tanks would no longer be faster than just running a standard comp

If you think more tanks over healers is the balanced distribution and moving back to standard comps being the best is hurting tanks then that’s just excessive tank bias built into your perception

[Turtledeluxe]

See, I think that is why some people are also against this idea behind the strike cause of comments like this. I get the intent, but to some it may just come off as whelp tanks should suffer for a little if we have to suffer. That is never a fun look.

Tanks getting nerfed is not suffering. Nerfs happen all the time. In every game. Throughout all time.

And as you are surely well aware, particular tanks are overtuned for all content. Yes, all content across all difficulty levels. It's beyond a balance problem. It's actually a joke.

And someone also generously provided an example of WoW devs achieving this very thing without destroying the game. They just heard the feedback and agreed and said enough.