M4S has officially been beaten without healers in week 2

[AmiableApkallu]

At the core isn't that what would happen if they made more busy healers and easier healers? If the busy healer is not overly stronger than the easier healer people will complain about that. If the easier healer is not as strong as the busy healer people will ask for buffs.

Or we could dispense with notion that we should have easy jobs vs. hard jobs, that we should have Baby's First Tank/Healer/DPS vs. Jobs for Grown Ups.

There's no job lore or identity to be built around, "So, yeah, the practitioners of XYZ were all intellectually stunted individuals, so their art kinda never got past being simple and easy."

Every job should have a relatively low barrier of entry and opportunities to be creative and eke out every last ounce of performance.

[Aravell]

If it could be cleared why make the adjustment at all? Just tell those jobs to play a different class? Wait for extra tome gear idk. Still seems like people are expecting SE to balance everything perfectly.

I doubt anyone is expecting perfect balance. In fact, there's been more and more people asking for fun jobs over perfect balance.

What most people want is just for their job to be viable, it's only a very fringe group that wants their preferred job to be meta all the time.

As for why they didn't just ask people to play a different job or wait for gear? It's because they're trying to craft an image of every job being viable, so instead of going through all 19 jobs at the time to rebalance them and make sure every comp can clear the fight, it's far easier to just nerf the HP of the fight.

[Bobby66]

uh ... if you go to the restaurant and order a dish:

- If it comes out raw, you should complain.

- If it comes out burn, you should also complain.

- I don't think asking for your good to be cook right is asking too much, do you?

I don't think the "people can't seem make up their mind" argument will work here.

This is not a restaurant this is about trying to strike a balance when with vastly differing views on what is best. That is not exactly an easy task and someone will always get the short end of the straw. Case in point old SMN. I and a I am sure many others enjoyed it, but it was altered to legit become one of the easiest classes in the game.

Unlike a restaurant things are not made to order in an MMO. MMO is more of a buffet.

I doubt anyone is expecting perfect balance. In fact, there's been more and more people asking for fun jobs over perfect balance.

What most people want is just for their job to be viable, it's only a very fringe group that wants their preferred job to be meta all the time.

As for why they didn't just ask people to play a different job or wait for gear? It's because they're trying to craft an image of every job being viable, so instead of going through all 19 jobs at the time to rebalance them and make sure every comp can clear the fight, it's far easier to just nerf the HP of the fight.

It was a rhetorical question. That is my point is SE appears to want to maintain this design philosophy instead of just telling people maybe certain jobs are just not meant for them try one of the other flavors they are like let us make sure everything can enjoy every flavor. Bad analogy but I am sure you get the point. That is why I do not think they will ever do much to change because they seem to want everything to be accessible to everyone but everyone has a differing view of what is accessible.

[Supersnow845]

If they really don’t want to actually raise the amount of healing needed to clear these fights so that tanks healing is doing the job for the healers why don’t they just as a bandaid flip tank and healer damage profiles

Right now tanks do 30% more damage than healers and as they are melee with zero uptime concerns they have the narrowest IQR’s. Just flip their damage amount with healers so that even if you can do this with 4 tanks and 4 DPS it’s just overall worse DPS than doing it with a standard comp

This clear had 2 deaths and 4 failed mechanics and was still a competitive speed kill because at this point the tank to healer DPS discrepancy is barely smaller than the tank DPS discrepancy

[Bobby66]

If they really don’t want to actually raise the amount of healing needed to clear these fights so that tanks healing is doing the job for the healers why don’t they just as a bandaid flip tank and healer damage profiles

Right now tanks do 30% more damage than healers and as they are melee with zero uptime concerns they have the narrowest IQR’s. Just flip their damage amount with healers so that even if you can do this with 4 tanks and 4 DPS it’s just overall worse DPS than doing it with a standard comp

This clear had 2 deaths and 4 failed mechanics and was still a competitive speed kill because at this point the tank to healer DPS discrepancy is barely smaller than the tank DPS discrepancy

Tbh sure that works, but that does nothing to solve engagement still be the same amount of buttons.

[Aravell]

If they really don’t want to actually raise the amount of healing needed to clear these fights so that tanks healing is doing the job for the healers why don’t they just as a bandaid flip tank and healer damage profiles

Right now tanks do 30% more damage than healers and as they are melee with zero uptime concerns they have the narrowest IQR’s. Just flip their damage amount with healers so that even if you can do this with 4 tanks and 4 DPS it’s just overall worse DPS than doing it with a standard comp

This clear had 2 deaths and 4 failed mechanics and was still a competitive speed kill because at this point the tank to healer DPS discrepancy is barely smaller than the tank DPS discrepancy

I still don't understand why they allow tanks to do their job for entirely no damage loss while giving them more damage output than the healer role.

Meanwhile, healers are designed to take an expected loss during progression but their designated maximum damage output is less than the tanks.

The design needs to make sense.

[Supersnow845]

Tbh sure that works, but that does nothing to solve engagement still be the same amount of buttons.

Never said it would, this is just a Bandaid fix to cut this problem of tanks just being better healers in high end content off at the knees

Healers are still a mess regardless

[Bobby66]

Never said it would, this is just a Bandaid fix to cut this problem of tanks just being better healers in high end content off at the knees

Healers are still a mess regardless

See, I think that is why some people are also against this idea behind the strike cause of comments like this. I get the intent, but to some it may just come off as whelp tanks should suffer for a little if we have to suffer. That is never a fun look.

I still don't understand why they allow tanks to do their job for entirely no damage loss while giving them more damage output than the healer role.

Meanwhile, healers are designed to take an expected loss during progression but their designated maximum damage output is less than the tanks.

The design needs to make sense.

This is true, I am not sure why they did away with stances. When you had a group that refuses to use aggro dumps or if you were under geared as a tank you were forced to still in tank stance and give up damage. It took a group effort for the tank to use their full damage. As how it was with healers at one point as the team progressed the fights healers were able to maximize their overall DPS uptime.

Never understood why they moved away from this, but alas from a numbers POV it might be hard point to prove against cause maybe their metrics show that people like this idk.

[Supersnow845]

See, I think that is why some people are also against this idea behind the strike cause of comments like this. I get the intent, but to some it may just come off as whelp tanks should suffer for a little if we have to suffer. That is never a fun look.

This just circles back to the problem of “you just want tanks to suffer”- okay present an idea to fix healers that doesn’t affect tanks in any way.

-nerf tank sustain-> nope affects tanks
-up damage-> nope nerfs tank sustain by proxy
-flip tank and healer damage-> nope tanks do less damage
-give healers something else to do-> nope doesn’t actually fix healers problem
-give healers DPS rotations but don’t change healing-> nope doesn’t fix healer problems

If you are trying to drive sympathy for tanks “oh think of the poor tanks it’s not their fault healers are shit” then please present a way to fix healers that won’t make tanks unhappy in one way or another. To me personally who plays tanks and enjoys them a lot flipping their damage profile is probably the least egregious balancing way to me because while you can feel the damage difference in an enrage setting moment to moment gameplay you don’t really notice a difference between tank and healing damage

[Bobby66]

This just circles back to the problem of “you just want tanks to suffer”- okay present an idea to fix healers that doesn’t affect tanks in any way.

-nerf tank sustain-> nope affects tanks
-up damage-> nope nerfs tank sustain by proxy
-flip tank and healer damage-> nope tanks do less damage
-give healers something else to do-> nope doesn’t actually fix healers problem
-give healers DPS rotations but don’t change healing-> nope doesn’t fix healer problems

If you are trying to drive dump that for tanks “oh think of the poor tanks it’s not their fault healers are shit” then please present a way to fix healers that won’t make tanks unhappy in one way or another

That is my point someone will always be unhappy, but to openly say x should have to suffer because y does is not really the best way to go about getting support imo. End of the day someone is going to get the short end of the stick, it is just a matter of picking who that will be. All jokes aside it seems SE has be loud and clear who they want to get the short end of the stick.

Edit: As a tank I would gladly give up our damage if they made aggro something we had a to manage again outside of just throw on a tank stance and ignore it. As an example, I wish they would add more mechanics that use both tanks in interesting ways.

I bet many other tanks would not want to give up their damage but damage is not why I personally play tank.