M4S has officially been beaten without healers in week 2

[Bobby66]

SNIP

Overall while I agree, I am not holding my breath but I do agree. That being said, I would argue that the access to so many rez options while in combat has done more to trivialize content and would rather they just got rid of them from every class that is not a healer and limit it to something like a 10 min cooldown on healer while in combat.

We have already seen what happens when they give roles skills that impact the group that appear to have minimal impact players will just ignore them altogether. To a degree that is what lead SE removing any semblance of aggro management players would not use their aggro dumps, so they shifted from making aggro a group effort into solely the tanks effort.

Even when it comes to CC, if we are being honest only reason we used hard CC like sheep or traps back in the day was because we were bad at the games. Even in classic WoW content were we would use traps largely just boiled down to let is unga bunga it stacks AoE and burn it down if we need to control we will use soft cc like slows and stuff.

For what it is worth and I know people dislike this take but I do think FFXIV is just going down a more causal path that may no longer cater to players that want to be engaged with the content outside of prog.

Edit: This largely boils down to two mindsets. One do you feel it should not be possible to map something out to the point where certain roles it was balanced for are no longer need. IE: 2 tanks 2 healers 4 dps or do you feel that it is okay for people to push the boundaries as to what is possible as so long it does not replace the standard that the content is balanced around.

Personally I do not see much an issue cause overall for most players a healer will always be preferred and needed to clear content. Now I do agree it would be nice to have fun with my role outside of prog and people playing poorly but alas I do not see SE changing that up anytime soon.

[Ramiee]

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Well if you want it to seem like I'm attacking you then sure fine, take it that way. Perhaps I should of just simply not quoted anyone but really my point remains the same. No opinions on here matter the games core design is broken, it being broken can't be justified by anyone that's my point. Im sorry if I misinterpreted what you said if thats the case.

[Ramiee]

I do not think this argument has much to do with the feat. Such tools would allow them to brain afk the mechs more so they can focus on gameplay.

But the execution of the strat is not the hardest part, it would be planning out all what is necessary and when. I bet there were plenty of failed attempts.

As you can see from the video, some parts are too hard to heal (stack before Ion Cannons) so cover + invuln cheese is required to pass as well.

The feat is not doing this without healers, its figuring out how to do it without healers - and the problem is that it is even possible at all.

Well it's mostly because healers are poorly designed and other jobs are over compensating with their healing.
Healers have kits for a game with a lot more constant healing being necessary but this game doesn't have that. The game is designed around determinent and patterned damage, you either take damage for failing a mechanic or it's choreographed raid wides that happen every run the exact same way.

Healers reworked in ShB were reworked as if this would change and it didn't. Instead other roles gained heals that are strong enough to let people survive through the patterned healing. So now healers who do way too low damage and have a low playerbase due to being very boring can be phased out by groups with any sort of communication, and you would do that wouldn't you if you could.
Why take a healer with personal damage so low it takes them longer to beat the MSQ because they take longer to kill mobs. Just take a tank or a DPS who can heal, make a basic plan on where who would use a heal, do one cheese to skip the one healing check in the fight and complete it way faster because you aren't being sandbagged by a weak magical DPS.

[Ayche]

Notice how you used an example that literally nobody has ever argued is egregious to prove a point nobody ever made

Mantra is an example of a good support skill…..you know why……..because it’s an actual SUPPORT skill in that it doesn’t do anything if the healers don’t take advantage of it. Mantra is totally fine, good even, minne, paen even the interaction waltz has where its two heals with one on you one on your dance partner.

The problem is heals like SIO that I’d like to remind everyone is a stronger heal than literally any of the healers can put out in terms of raw HPS outside of macrocosmos shenanigans and has half the CD of macrocosmos and heals like bloodwhetting or HS that aren’t just “oh I’ll give the healer a little breathing room” instead being “with these I don’t need the healer at all”

I did not want to reply to anyone in particular, only to the general vibe of the thread.

Or we could even say the general vibe of the forums since the strike flared up. Like where is the line is to be drawn for reciprocative actions? I am pressing Divine Veil in hopes that I made a difference and let people survive some big damage spike. If they are not topped up to take it, how big of an impact am I allowed to have? Should they still die because I was stepping over the role lines and it is none of my business? People have also suggested consolidating mitigations from other jobs to healers so do I keep Passage of Arms and reprisal? I wouldn't like that either, I want to feel like a part of the effort.

I wouldn't want to lose Holy Sheltron healing either, because I like having agency over my own health when taking damage. DRK's TBN is a fun ability exactly because it feels like pushing back against the tide of damage frequently instead of just passively soaking damage. I actually switched from DRK to PLD mostly because I like the feeling of the party abilities more on Paladin than with DRK where dark messenger just felt like a big "eh".

[Supersnow845]

I did not want to reply to anyone in particular, only to the general vibe of the thread.

Or we could even say the general vibe of the forums since the strike flared up. Like where is the line is to be drawn for reciprocative actions? I am pressing Divine Veil in hopes that I made a difference and let people survive some big damage spike. If they are not topped up to take it, how big of an impact am I allowed to have? Should they still die because I was stepping over the role lines and it is none of my business? People have also suggested consolidating mitigations from other jobs to healers so do I keep Passage of Arms and reprisal? I wouldn't like that either, I want to feel like a part of the effort.

I wouldn't want to lose Holy Sheltron healing either, because I like having agency over my own health when taking damage. DRK's TBN is a fun ability exactly because it feels like pushing back against the tide of damage frequently instead of just passively soaking damage. I actually switched from DRK to PLD mostly because I like the feeling of the party abilities more on Paladin than with DRK where dark messenger just felt like a big "eh".

Well let’s look at the examples you provided

Divine veil- it’s a mitigation and bring a shield it’s designed as an Omni mitigation, totally fair and not overpowered. Then it has a heal……..why? Why does your AOE mitigation need a heal. If you look at WAR it’s even more egregious why does it need a regen as well

Passage of arms and reprisal- AOE mitigations, totally fine, they have no healing effects

Holy Shelton- in my opinion it’s too much healing but let’s leave that aside as personal taste. Let’s look at PLD’s two other main methods of healing; intervention and rotational healing. A PLD presses Holy Spirit/holy circle about 3 times per minute and does a confitier combo for 7 400 potency heals per minute of which you have no agency over, you do then because it’s a DPS gain to press them. Then intervention skill used to protect others, why does this skill also heal the other person (nascent flash and HOC are the same) when it’s on such a short CD and has no downside to the PLD besides robbing you of the ability to cast your own mitigation for the next 20 seconds

Overlap of the roles can be good if it’s balanced well, but HS/NF/DV/HOC/SIO are not well balanced because they are healer level healing CD’s with zero drawbacks to the tank. You can see this in the reverse in that the strongest free single target mitigation the healers can give to the tanks is 15% aquaveil

Sharing of some measure of role responsibility is fine (which is why TBN is perfectly fine being targetable), the rest of the tanks just take it 15 steps too far

[Ozmandis]

If you think giving tanks/dps healing is alright, why don't healers also get tank/dps abilities ? At least it would be fair then. I'm totally on the team that every job damage should be lowered a little bit to be given back to healers and bring them to the same level of tanks. If you don't agree with that I'm sorry to tell you but you are not advocating for balance or crossover responsability. Either everyone should be able to do everything or no one should step out of their specialization too much. Arguing that it is perfectly normal for tanks to make more DPS and have sufficient party healing to keep everyone alive is asinine, it should not even be possible in normal content except under rare circumstances and yet we're seeing that be done on freaking current savage and ultimate.`

At this point I think they should simply drop the masquerade, everyone should be a DPS with some form of specialized utility because that's how the game always has worked. Let "true" DPS have their 20% damage bonus but design tanks as DPS with mitigation and healers as DPS with healing. That's the only reasonnable solution I can see that don't necessitate to rework all content from the ground up. Even if tanks were not as OP as they are right now, healing would still be bland and boring because of encounter design.

[Ayche]

Well let’s look at the examples you provided

Divine veil- it’s a mitigation and bring a shield it’s designed as an Omni mitigation, totally fair and not overpowered. Then it has a heal……..why?

On just the healing part: Division of power. If all the healing potencies were converted into pure shielding, both Divine Veil and Shake it off would be huge, and they were even more powerful. But tbh they would feel more boring since filling health bars feels better. If we had to live without the healing power all together ... well the entire button would feel worse and less impactful all together and like a wasted effort. I doubt a 10% hp shield would be enough to save most dire situations at all.

I have always felt that people do not press addle or feint on their respective dps roles because they cannot see the impact. For the part of the community that does not enrage with mit schedules or combat readers, the imminent impact of the game is what drives behavior.

[Supersnow845]

On just the healing part: Division of power. If all the healing potencies were converted into pure shielding, both Divine Veil and Shake it off would be huge, and they were even more powerful. But tbh they would feel more boring since filling health bars feels better. If we had to live without the healing power all together ... well the entire button would feel worse and less impactful all together and like a wasted effort. I doubt a 10% hp shield would be enough to save most dire situations at all.

I have always felt that people do not press addle or feint on their respective dps roles because they cannot see the impact. For the part of the community that does not enrage with mit schedules or combat readers, the imminent impact of the game is what drives behavior.

I mean that’s how the button worked until like 6.3 and if “filling health bars” is how you have fun why aren’t you playing a healer

[Ayche]

I mean that’s how the button worked until like 6.3 and if “filling health bars” is how you have fun why aren’t you playing a healer

6.0 added the healing to it.

[Talianore]

6.0 added the healing to it.

6.3 is when they removed the requirement that someone had to cast a heal to activate it though, so some sacrifice was required until 6.3. Now it's a free heal and shield. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯