M4S has officially been beaten without healers in week 2

[Ayche]

There is some real "Role fundamentalism" going on.
"Oh, East is East, and West is West, and never the twain shall meet"
The ability to help others over "role lines" is a good thing, it gives a sense of comradery. When a monk player activates the unsolicited mantra during a situation where people are taking a lot of damage, is your response to that "He wants to help me heal the group" or "He has no trust in me, he used mantra because he thinks I will fail." You could make Divine Veil not stack with itself I guess, but if you nerf Mantra down to like 2% bonus healing, the response for player is most likely just to forget about it and we lose that piece of cooperation forever.

[Supersnow845]

There is some real "Role fundamentalism" going on.
"Oh, East is East, and West is West, and never the twain shall meet"
The ability to help others over "role lines" is a good thing, it gives a sense of comradery. When a monk player activates the unsolicited mantra during a situation where people are taking a lot of damage, is your response to that "He wants to help me heal the group" or "He has no trust in me, he used mantra because he thinks I will fail." You could make Divine Veil not stack with itself I guess, but if you nerf Mantra down to like 2% bonus healing, the response for player is most likely just to forget about it and we lose that piece of cooperation forever.

Notice how you used an example that literally nobody has ever argued is egregious to prove a point nobody ever made

Mantra is an example of a good support skill…..you know why……..because it’s an actual SUPPORT skill in that it doesn’t do anything if the healers don’t take advantage of it. Mantra is totally fine, good even, minne, paen even the interaction waltz has where its two heals with one on you one on your dance partner.

The problem is heals like SIO that I’d like to remind everyone is a stronger heal than literally any of the healers can put out in terms of raw HPS outside of macrocosmos shenanigans and has half the CD of macrocosmos and heals like bloodwhetting or HS that aren’t just “oh I’ll give the healer a little breathing room” instead being “with these I don’t need the healer at all”

[Jojoya]

Idk I always felt the purpose of the extra utility brought by other jobs like heals and rez's was less about making healers less important but to offer a means where if the healer dies it is GG.

Yet it has gone overboard to the point that tanks no longer need healers at all, and they don't need damage dealers unless there is a DPS check to beat that tank DPS can't handle.

If a tank dies, the healer has the ability to resurrect the tank quickly (if they haven't just used their Swiftcast), tank can provoke as soon as they're up and wipe is averted.

If a damage dealer dies, the healer has the ability to resurrect them quickly to contribute to any DPS check the party needs to pass to avoid a wipe.

If a healer dies, who is there to resurrect the healer? Either the party has RDM or SMN, or the healer remains dead.

The answer isn't to give other roles multiple tools to handle healing and mitigation. The answer is to give the other roles a tool to resurrect the healer so they can perform their role just as the healer is able to resurrect the other roles so they can do theirs.

That's not to say that the other roles should have no tools for healing and mitigation. But those tools should be rare with moderate length recast time (90-120 seconds) and should apply to self only (outside of tanks getting a party wide mitigation tool to use, which would be appropriate for their role).

The utility that damage dealers get should be related to dealing damage. Increase the damage done by self and party members. Debuff the boss to reduce their damage dealt and/or increase damage taken. I'm old school enough I would love to see crowd control make a comeback for some boss fights and having damage dealers responsible for that.

The job design team needs to step back and remember the point of each role in the trinity. Tanks generate enmity so the majority of incoming damage is directed at them, then mitigate the damage received so they can survive long enough to get needed healing from healers. Damage dealers deal damage to all enemies while doing their best to avoid avoidable damage. They likewise should be relying on healers to handle unavoidable damage plus any additional damage taken due to errors.

If they're going to keep giving a single role more and more tools then design encounters so the other roles are only relevant to speed of kill and not to success, then they need to get rid of the trinity entirely and give all jobs the same general tools with the same overall potency/power as those that tanks are being given.

[Somnolence]

It is really funny how often im reminded that people have no idea what theyre looking at or are talking about when discussing this stuff. Like people don't even recognise cactbot which literally tells them what to do so they don't even have to remember mechanics this is literally just a group of people who have done this fight once maybe twice and now they have a plugin telling them what to do and with that plugin telling them what to do they can perfectly do mechanics and it shows that if you can perfectly do mechanics you do not need a healer because damage output in this game is determinent not consistent. Hell this happens every single raid tier its just been way faster than usual.

I do not think this argument has much to do with the feat. Such tools would allow them to brain afk the mechs more so they can focus on gameplay.

But the execution of the strat is not the hardest part, it would be planning out all what is necessary and when. I bet there were plenty of failed attempts.

As you can see from the video, some parts are too hard to heal (stack before Ion Cannons) so cover + invuln cheese is required to pass as well.

The feat is not doing this without healers, its figuring out how to do it without healers - and the problem is that it is even possible at all.

[NightHour]

There was zero uptime GCD healing by the PLD’s here, literally anyone who can parse purple can do this
And actually locking out healers isn’t the point anyway. The point is that if the PLD can do the healers job for them why do we have TWO healers overloaded with disgustingly overpowered healing

When nascent flash+SIO+DV is doing 80% of the healing in this log then why the actual f……. Does a skill as powerful as seraphism exist on a class that has a damage kit that looks like it’s designed around a healer that spends 95% of the time spamming succor

They give all this healing to WAR PLD but DRK gets a middle finger.

[Bobby66]

SNIP

Overall while I agree, I am not holding my breath but I do agree. That being said, I would argue that the access to so many rez options while in combat has done more to trivialize content and would rather they just got rid of them from every class that is not a healer and limit it to something like a 10 min cooldown on healer while in combat.

We have already seen what happens when they give roles skills that impact the group that appear to have minimal impact players will just ignore them altogether. To a degree that is what lead SE removing any semblance of aggro management players would not use their aggro dumps, so they shifted from making aggro a group effort into solely the tanks effort.

Even when it comes to CC, if we are being honest only reason we used hard CC like sheep or traps back in the day was because we were bad at the games. Even in classic WoW content were we would use traps largely just boiled down to let is unga bunga it stacks AoE and burn it down if we need to control we will use soft cc like slows and stuff.

For what it is worth and I know people dislike this take but I do think FFXIV is just going down a more causal path that may no longer cater to players that want to be engaged with the content outside of prog.

Edit: This largely boils down to two mindsets. One do you feel it should not be possible to map something out to the point where certain roles it was balanced for are no longer need. IE: 2 tanks 2 healers 4 dps or do you feel that it is okay for people to push the boundaries as to what is possible as so long it does not replace the standard that the content is balanced around.

Personally I do not see much an issue cause overall for most players a healer will always be preferred and needed to clear content. Now I do agree it would be nice to have fun with my role outside of prog and people playing poorly but alas I do not see SE changing that up anytime soon.

[Ramiee]

snip

Well if you want it to seem like I'm attacking you then sure fine, take it that way. Perhaps I should of just simply not quoted anyone but really my point remains the same. No opinions on here matter the games core design is broken, it being broken can't be justified by anyone that's my point. Im sorry if I misinterpreted what you said if thats the case.

[Ramiee]

I do not think this argument has much to do with the feat. Such tools would allow them to brain afk the mechs more so they can focus on gameplay.

But the execution of the strat is not the hardest part, it would be planning out all what is necessary and when. I bet there were plenty of failed attempts.

As you can see from the video, some parts are too hard to heal (stack before Ion Cannons) so cover + invuln cheese is required to pass as well.

The feat is not doing this without healers, its figuring out how to do it without healers - and the problem is that it is even possible at all.

Well it's mostly because healers are poorly designed and other jobs are over compensating with their healing.
Healers have kits for a game with a lot more constant healing being necessary but this game doesn't have that. The game is designed around determinent and patterned damage, you either take damage for failing a mechanic or it's choreographed raid wides that happen every run the exact same way.

Healers reworked in ShB were reworked as if this would change and it didn't. Instead other roles gained heals that are strong enough to let people survive through the patterned healing. So now healers who do way too low damage and have a low playerbase due to being very boring can be phased out by groups with any sort of communication, and you would do that wouldn't you if you could.
Why take a healer with personal damage so low it takes them longer to beat the MSQ because they take longer to kill mobs. Just take a tank or a DPS who can heal, make a basic plan on where who would use a heal, do one cheese to skip the one healing check in the fight and complete it way faster because you aren't being sandbagged by a weak magical DPS.

[Ayche]

Notice how you used an example that literally nobody has ever argued is egregious to prove a point nobody ever made

Mantra is an example of a good support skill…..you know why……..because it’s an actual SUPPORT skill in that it doesn’t do anything if the healers don’t take advantage of it. Mantra is totally fine, good even, minne, paen even the interaction waltz has where its two heals with one on you one on your dance partner.

The problem is heals like SIO that I’d like to remind everyone is a stronger heal than literally any of the healers can put out in terms of raw HPS outside of macrocosmos shenanigans and has half the CD of macrocosmos and heals like bloodwhetting or HS that aren’t just “oh I’ll give the healer a little breathing room” instead being “with these I don’t need the healer at all”

I did not want to reply to anyone in particular, only to the general vibe of the thread.

Or we could even say the general vibe of the forums since the strike flared up. Like where is the line is to be drawn for reciprocative actions? I am pressing Divine Veil in hopes that I made a difference and let people survive some big damage spike. If they are not topped up to take it, how big of an impact am I allowed to have? Should they still die because I was stepping over the role lines and it is none of my business? People have also suggested consolidating mitigations from other jobs to healers so do I keep Passage of Arms and reprisal? I wouldn't like that either, I want to feel like a part of the effort.

I wouldn't want to lose Holy Sheltron healing either, because I like having agency over my own health when taking damage. DRK's TBN is a fun ability exactly because it feels like pushing back against the tide of damage frequently instead of just passively soaking damage. I actually switched from DRK to PLD mostly because I like the feeling of the party abilities more on Paladin than with DRK where dark messenger just felt like a big "eh".

[Supersnow845]

I did not want to reply to anyone in particular, only to the general vibe of the thread.

Or we could even say the general vibe of the forums since the strike flared up. Like where is the line is to be drawn for reciprocative actions? I am pressing Divine Veil in hopes that I made a difference and let people survive some big damage spike. If they are not topped up to take it, how big of an impact am I allowed to have? Should they still die because I was stepping over the role lines and it is none of my business? People have also suggested consolidating mitigations from other jobs to healers so do I keep Passage of Arms and reprisal? I wouldn't like that either, I want to feel like a part of the effort.

I wouldn't want to lose Holy Sheltron healing either, because I like having agency over my own health when taking damage. DRK's TBN is a fun ability exactly because it feels like pushing back against the tide of damage frequently instead of just passively soaking damage. I actually switched from DRK to PLD mostly because I like the feeling of the party abilities more on Paladin than with DRK where dark messenger just felt like a big "eh".

Well let’s look at the examples you provided

Divine veil- it’s a mitigation and bring a shield it’s designed as an Omni mitigation, totally fair and not overpowered. Then it has a heal……..why? Why does your AOE mitigation need a heal. If you look at WAR it’s even more egregious why does it need a regen as well

Passage of arms and reprisal- AOE mitigations, totally fine, they have no healing effects

Holy Shelton- in my opinion it’s too much healing but let’s leave that aside as personal taste. Let’s look at PLD’s two other main methods of healing; intervention and rotational healing. A PLD presses Holy Spirit/holy circle about 3 times per minute and does a confitier combo for 7 400 potency heals per minute of which you have no agency over, you do then because it’s a DPS gain to press them. Then intervention skill used to protect others, why does this skill also heal the other person (nascent flash and HOC are the same) when it’s on such a short CD and has no downside to the PLD besides robbing you of the ability to cast your own mitigation for the next 20 seconds

Overlap of the roles can be good if it’s balanced well, but HS/NF/DV/HOC/SIO are not well balanced because they are healer level healing CD’s with zero drawbacks to the tank. You can see this in the reverse in that the strongest free single target mitigation the healers can give to the tanks is 15% aquaveil

Sharing of some measure of role responsibility is fine (which is why TBN is perfectly fine being targetable), the rest of the tanks just take it 15 steps too far