On the Removal of Positionals

[Aco505]

I have a limited number of space in these posts

Just post anything and edit it after. It'll let you write as much as you want. You can just prepare the full text beforehand, post a part, then edit it and add the full version.

[W00by]

Before meleesplaining, you should have enough experience when it comes to the jobs you want to talk about (as your profile shows, the only caster you have at 100 is RDM and you haven't even unlocked PCT). You can talk about melee struggles without minimalising caster struggles. It's very annoying and ridiculous.

Also, when did I insinuate that Caster is never hard ever? I just found those two mechanics easier. I'll be the first to say that BLM PoVs of the icicle mechanic in Valigarmanda make my hair start falling out even though that mechanic is braindead for my role. I just think those two mechanics are easier on caster than melee. Acting like I called all caster players knuckleheads when I am one myself is ridiculous, dude.

I don't have experience with BLM at 100, true, but I did play BLM for E5-E11 in Shadowbringers, so it's not like I have no idea how the class works. And while I haven't unlocked Picto, my best friend is a Picto main and we talk about it all the time, so I know he finds Arcadion 2 and 3 pretty approachable on that job, though I can only take his word for it.

[rewd]

If you wanna look at my logs since Heavensward, I've raided on SMN, BLM, RDM, DNC, and of course all the melees. Ive also played GNB, WAR, and PLD. I have done the most recent raids on RDM and have talked to lots of other casters about them. I've also watched healer clears of turns 2 and 3. I do think if you're trying to eke out EVERY drip of potency as a caster, it's of course going to be a lot harder. Just like if you're trying to hit every single positional, it's going to be harder.

I have a limited number of space in these posts, and I'm already verbose as it is, so I don't want to predicate every single caster comment with "except Black Mage that one's hard." I'm sure it is pretty hard on Black Mage. But having done it on Red Mage, I thought optimal RDM was much, much easier than optimal melee.

Now, check yourself before posting hostile stuff like this. I don't like to flex player experience, but I'm not "meleesplaining" anything. I play every role but healer, but you'll notice I don't talk about healer because, unlike you, I know my limits.

Who cares about your logs? I didn't even mention them. And who cares about past expansions? We are talking about DT and Arcadion, if you haven't noticed. You talked about some things being very easy for casters, even though you, objectively, barely have experience with them. In other words: you have no idea what you are talking about.

And yes, if you want to generalise an entire role, you should have the decency to specify what you are talking about. You won't ever see me in the forums saying "X and Y are actually easy on melee" just because I play VPR and I have 3 gap closers and bankable Uncoiled Fury stacks, because I acknowledge there are differences within the role, and we are talking about a much more homogenised role compared to casters.

"Hostile" meaning "I don't know what I'm talking about and I get mad when someone calls me out". And you know your limits? Is this why I just saw you in the thread about Starry Muse, having absolutely no idea how the skill actually works? Please. I see a pattern now, so don't worry, you are free to enjoy the usual melee circlejerk.

[W00by]

melee circlejerk.

The logs are proof that I know how Caster as a role (including all the jobs) works, and that I'm not a solo melee player. I have done LIGHT RAMPANT on Black Mage, I know what a hard mechanic feels like on that job. Pretending previous expansions don't matter when this one has been out for two weeks is hilarious. Just because I haven't had time to level BLM and do it in Arcadion doesn't mean my opinion is completely invalid. Believe it or not, I can learn how other jobs work in certain fights by (get this) talking to people and asking them their thoughts, without attacking them ad hominem.

You clearly have some kind of persecution complex if you think me saying one mechanic is easy for your role means that your job is super easy all the time and I'm some melee elitist who's backflipping and loves to hate on the enlightened caster mains.

Do I get things wrong sometimes? Absolutely! And I own up to it when I am wrong about something! I appreciate being corrected so I can be right in the future. I thank people for it. But I also don't attack other people when they make a mistake. You're insanely hostile over a random "this mechanic is easier for casters" comment in a thread that isn't even about casters, to the point you're digging through my profile to justify hating me more.

I know for a fact it's easy on RDM because I've played it on RDM. And I trust the opinions of my strong Picto friends who have shared their thoughts with me on the job. Is BLM an outlier? Maybe. But is it worth attacking someone over a mild ommission, trying your best to invalidate my experiences? Absolutely not. I 100% have enough FFXIV experience to have an opinion and if you ignore the proof of that, hey, nothing I can do.

Calm down and share your opinion respectfully. I'm not the one who's mad here.

[Galvuu]

Snip.

In general, caster uptime (for the non-SMN) is harder to maintain perfectly and the penalty is higher. Positionals cost 40ish potency, losing a Fire IV or a Picto cast is 400 thru 600 potency.
And we all seem to agree that cast bars are a defining trait of casters that should not be removed. I, myself, also agree with this.
I don't understand why positionals, which are easier to score and have a much smaller penalty when you miss them, invoke such ire.

(I agree with you btw, making a point off what you stated)
Either way, I don't think it's a problem if a fight is designed in a way where you can only get 95% of your positionals, or have 1/2s of caster downtime.

[Mooserocka33]

Hello all,

I have noticed that a lot of the criticism of Viper--those coming out in support of the announced changes--have almost nothing to say about Viper itself. The vast majority of the discussion surrounding the changes seems to be regarding the mere existence of positionals.

I will admit that i have not read every single page of every single thread and the hundreds of responses therein, but I have read dozens and dozens of them. Thus far, I haven't read any specific criticism of Viper's current rotation or playstyle. I haven't read any responses saying "Viper's APM is too high" or "It's too hard to hit both oGCDs while moving from Hunter's Coil to Swiftskin's Coil".

All the criticism I have seen can be summarized by these three comments I found across the various threads. Please excuse my paraphrasing:
1. "I am a tank main, and melee DPS has a flow that is too different for me to enjoy. Positionals are a key part of this."
2. "Missing a positional feels bad, so I'd rather them not exist and take a DPS loss instead." (Which, I feel obligated to note, is what happens if you ignore them and pretend they don't exist.)
3. "Because some wall bosses exist, and wall bosses do not require positioning to execute positionals, then positionals should not exist in any content under any circumstances."

None of these criticisms have anything to do with Viper and with whether or not Viper should be changed. They are part of an overarching discussion on the existence of positionals within the game, and whether or not positionals should exist; Viper is simply being used as an outlet for these players to criticize a gameplay element they do not want to engage with.

On that note -- engaging or not engaging with positionals -- I would like to refer everyone to the following image. I've been doing my best not to be pedantic, but this is what it has come to:

https://i.imgur.com/ZG8FQtM.png

And, keeping that image fresh in mind, I'd like to point out that maximum damage, not decent/respectable/passable damage, is the key tenant of positionals. If that continues to be a problem, or not understood, then I'd like to refer continuing critics of positionals to one of the following four images instead:
https://i.imgur.com/XnShC5m.png
https://i.imgur.com/sShdOEo.png
https://i.imgur.com/0B7Qtn9.png
https://i.imgur.com/FJNKFbk.png

As playing melee for years positionals barely matter anymore. Back in the day if you missed one you REALLY suffered damage. now we have true north 2 stacks!!! and if you miss its like a 20 potency drop its barely anything. Positionals honestly dont matter at all anymore.

[W00by]

I don't understand why positionals, which are easier to score and have a much smaller penalty when you miss them, invoke such ire.

My tinfoil hat theory is that melees generally have more popular class fantasies (dual wielding rogues, scythe wielding reapers, katana wielding samurai and famous final fantasy dragoons) and therefore larger casual audiences to complain about positionals. Or perhaps it's because casual audiences just bounce off of casters like BLM entirely, but feel "close enough" to good at melee since the loss is, indeed, so small in comparison. SMN is really popular, after all, and it doesn't have that barrier to entry. I have no way to confirm or deny though.

Either way, I agree that losing casts is overall a lot more punishing than positionals, so it is a little strange that people complain about it so much!

[rewd]

Also, when did I insinuate that Caster is never hard ever? I just found those two mechanics easier. I'll be the first to say that BLM PoVs of the icicle mechanic in Valigarmanda make my hair start falling out even though that mechanic is braindead for my role. I just think those two mechanics are easier on caster than melee. Acting like I called all caster players knuckleheads when I am one myself is ridiculous, dude.

I don't have experience with BLM at 100, true, but I did play BLM for E5-E11 in Shadowbringers, so it's not like I have no idea how the class works. And while I haven't unlocked Picto, my best friend is a Picto main and we talk about it all the time, so I know he finds Arcadion 2 and 3 pretty approachable on that job, though I can only take his word for it.

See? You keep changing topics. "I raided as this and this 5 years ago", "Valigarmanda"etc. etc. Are we talking about Arcadion (and specifically those two mechanics) or not? I didn't insinuate that casters are never hard and I also didn't accuse you of it, either. Please, quote my exact words where I supposedly accuse of that, I'll wait.

You think those two mechanics are easier on RDM, not casters. Two entirely different concepts. You really don't see the difference?

Also, ShB was two expansions ago, BLM could be considered a different job now (sadly).

Anyway, you just keep contradicting yourself. Your initial point is (i'll summarise): X and Y mechanics are tricky on melee because it's hard to land positionals and you have to get creative with your tools. They are easier on casters (= actually RDM).

Then, you backpedal and say that yes, they are harder on casters if you want to play optimally... Exactly like positionals. Yet, you only make it a big deal when talking about melee.

[W00by]

See? You keep changing topics. "I raided as this and this 5 years ago", "Valigarmanda"etc. etc. Are we talking about Arcadion (and specifically those two mechanics) or not? I didn't insinuate that casters are never hard and I also didn't accuse you of it, either. Please, quote my exact words where I supposedly accuse of that, I'll wait.

Then, you backpedal and say that yes, they are harder on casters if you want to play optimally... Exactly like positionals. Yet, you only make it a big deal when talking about melee.

Well, this is a thread about melees, not cast times?... I could talk about what mechanics are really harsh for casters, if you want. But I'm only "making a big deal about melee" because this is a melee thread... I only keep mentioning content like Valigarmanda or Shadowbringers because you're jumping down my throat making wild accusations at me and I have to defend myself. You never literally say "you think casters are easy," but you describe me as part of a melee circlejerk and that I am meleesplaining your role. Those are accusations, my friend.

Anyways, I agree that BLM is a different job right now. But with experiences that I had on BLM, I can triangulate my opinions on current BLM. For instance, the heart mechanic is very similar to one of Byakko EX's Aramitama mechanics, where you are dodging orbs that radiate from the center of the arena. I did that on BLM and found it easy. From the PoVs of BLM I have watched, heart looks pretty easy too if you move away from other players so you arent getting extra AoE baits. But I'll be sure to let you know when I level it.

I earnestly believe these two mechanics are easier on casters. RDM aside, I think every fight in the game is easy on SMN. And you keep ignoring that I have spoken to and watched people play these jobs! If, to have an opinion about something, you had to be the best player in the world at that thing, then none of us could ever talk about jobs ever again.

I truly do feel it's easier. You can try and ignore the things I'm mentioning to prove I have no expertise, but it just digs a deeper hole for you.

[Galvuu]

I earnestly believe these two mechanics are easier on casters. RDM aside, I think every fight in the game is easy on SMN.

In fairness, if you define a "caster" as a "class whose damage/gcds are gated behind lengthy cast times", SMN is not a caster. It's basically a "magical physical ranged". So it should be excluded from the comparison.
It's the easiest dps job in the game anyway.

Fwiw, those two mechanics (lariat combo into others stuff) and Honey B.'s bullcrap felt, to me, as bad on Picto/BLM as they did on melee. It just feels awful. Melee has an easier time with uptime, but they deal with way more hearts. Casters need to deal with "move then stop then move" due to the aoes with the occasional heart, which is awful too. Lariat is because of the side being random, so you can't "premove" at all, it's more move > stop > move.
(I still agree with you, I feel this is an instance where melee need to sweat as much as casters, which makes it strange some people say that "melee is free"... it's not in these two fights).