On the Removal of Positionals

[Arkrayven]

Hello all,

I have noticed that a lot of the criticism of Viper--those coming out in support of the announced changes--have almost nothing to say about Viper itself. The vast majority of the discussion surrounding the changes seems to be regarding the mere existence of positionals.

I will admit that i have not read every single page of every single thread and the hundreds of responses therein, but I have read dozens and dozens of them. Thus far, I haven't read any specific criticism of Viper's current rotation or playstyle. I haven't read any responses saying "Viper's APM is too high" or "It's too hard to hit both oGCDs while moving from Hunter's Coil to Swiftskin's Coil".

All the criticism I have seen can be summarized by these three comments I found across the various threads. Please excuse my paraphrasing:
1. "I am a tank main, and melee DPS has a flow that is too different for me to enjoy. Positionals are a key part of this."
2. "Missing a positional feels bad, so I'd rather them not exist and take a DPS loss instead." (Which, I feel obligated to note, is what happens if you ignore them and pretend they don't exist.)
3. "Because some wall bosses exist, and wall bosses do not require positioning to execute positionals, then positionals should not exist in any content under any circumstances."

None of these criticisms have anything to do with Viper and with whether or not Viper should be changed. They are part of an overarching discussion on the existence of positionals within the game, and whether or not positionals should exist; Viper is simply being used as an outlet for these players to criticize a gameplay element they do not want to engage with.

On that note -- engaging or not engaging with positionals -- I would like to refer everyone to the following image. I've been doing my best not to be pedantic, but this is what it has come to:

https://i.imgur.com/ZG8FQtM.png

And, keeping that image fresh in mind, I'd like to point out that maximum damage, not decent/respectable/passable damage, is the key tenant of positionals. If that continues to be a problem, or not understood, then I'd like to refer continuing critics of positionals to one of the following four images instead:
https://i.imgur.com/XnShC5m.png
https://i.imgur.com/sShdOEo.png
https://i.imgur.com/0B7Qtn9.png
https://i.imgur.com/FJNKFbk.png

[Aco505]

Sadly, topics about removing positionals from mostly non-melee mains sprout from time to time. It's an endless struggle! Funnily enough, I don't see anyone advocating for the removal of cast times or Swiftcast.

[Melethron123]

Sadly, topics about removing positionals from mostly non-melee mains sprout from time to time. It's an endless struggle! Funnily enough, I don't see anyone advocating for the removal of cast times or Swiftcast.

people heavily advocated for the removal of cast times from BRD in heavensward

[anna-steele]

Sadly, topics about removing positionals from mostly non-melee mains sprout from time to time. It's an endless struggle! Funnily enough, I don't see anyone advocating for the removal of cast times or Swiftcast.

pls remove my cast time, i have 2 on ruby rite and i hate it. instant cast for all! free the people!

[ShadowyZero]

Sadly, topics about removing positionals from mostly non-melee mains sprout from time to time. It's an endless struggle! Funnily enough, I don't see anyone advocating for the removal of cast times or Swiftcast.

i wanted cast times changed or removed on a melee but so many got butthurt over it lol

[ThorneDynasty]

i wanted cast times changed or removed on a melee but so many got butthurt over it lol

Didn't you immediately start going on about people being "weebs" simply for disagreeing with you? Who was butthurt?

[ShadowyZero]

Didn't you immediately start going on about people being "weebs" simply for disagreeing with you? Who was butthurt?

why are you stalking me bruh? lmao just let it go already XD your obsession with me is getting creepy seriously do you not have literally anything else to do? or somewhere else more productive to channel your hate into?

[Selvokaz]

Then simply teach the new vipers that the green buttons is for left or right of the enemy, and the red buttons are for behind the enemy.

[RyuuZero]

My Point of the Removal of Positionals is backed by the fact that They removed Positionals from Monk! And Sorry but Monk is the Last Job to remove Positionals on.

Sadly, topics about removing positionals from mostly non-melee mains sprout from time to time. It's an endless struggle! Funnily enough, I don't see anyone advocating for the removal of cast times or Swiftcast.

Now that's an (false) accusation^^ like who asked Monk's Positionals to be removed? Not me, that's for sure. But isn't the the slow removal of Positionals an Indicator for maybe future changes? Hell! Viper has 2 One-Button 1-2-3 Combos! Stuff that should remain in PvP and hopefully only remains a Viper Gimmick in PvE.. like for me playing NIN, the Positional of Trick Attack is non-existent since Trick Attack gets completely covered by True North.. so what's the point?

Then simply teach the new vipers that the green buttons is for left or right of the enemy, and the red buttons are for behind the enemy.

..And that's helpful, thanks

I'm not necessarily for the Removal of Positionals.. but the Monk's Positional Removal sets off the alarm bells for a complete Removal of Positionals as a Possibility.. I mean.. if they remove Positionals, the Server/Game also would've less calculating to do which may free up resources +True North also could be removed freeing up buttons.. now what's with the Combos then? I'd say as a Direction would be that of Buff and Burst Combos.. But Hell! that New Kunai Stuff of NIN feels brutally useless! like why doesn't those Kunai Buff Raiju and stuff? Only Aeolian Edge?? huh...

[Aco505]

My Point of the Removal of Positionals is backed by the fact that They removed Positionals from Monk! And Sorry but Monk is the Last Job to remove Positionals on.

DRG had 50% of its GCDs as positionals and now it's 30%. MNK wasn't the only positional heavy job. Additionally, DRG cannot introduce extra GCDs in the rotation to move them around; they're static in the GCD loop.

Now that's an (false) accusation^^ like who asked Monk's Positionals to be removed? Not me, that's for sure.

There's a new discussion thread on removing positionals every once in a while both in the official forums and other platforms such as Reddit. It comes up often.

In fact, you actually made your own thread not too long ago asking players to choose what to remove: DoTs or positionals. Whether your intention was to actually remove them or not is another matter but you did open it up for debate.

This kind of talk does happen often.

Yet as I said you don't see this with cast times and Swiftcast, because no one would be asking for those to be removed from casters considering it's part of their identity and it becomes a point of contention amongst the player base when they have too little management (e. g. SMN).

Those against positionals tend to not play melee jobs and want them removed so that the jobs are more appealing to them, despite the fact that missing positionals is not a big deal when it comes to DPS.

Whether they should be a bigger deal or not is a different question but positionals provide a way of increasing engagement and APM without increasing button count.

Until SE gives melee jobs something else that makes their rotations more involved, positionals should stay.

And the reason is simple: every time they remove something, they don't give something else in return. The recent reaction to the proposed VPR changes for 7.05 should be proof enough of this.