On the Removal of Positionals

[W00by]

In fairness, if you define a "caster" as a "class whose damage/gcds are gated behind lengthy cast times", SMN is not a caster. It's basically a "magical physical ranged". So it should be excluded from the comparison.
It's the easiest dps job in the game anyway.

Fwiw, those two mechanics (lariat combo into others stuff) and Honey B.'s bullcrap felt, to me, as bad on Picto/BLM as they did on melee. It just feels awful. Melee has an easier time with uptime, but they deal with way more hearts. Casters need to deal with "move then stop then move" due to the aoes with the occasional heart, which is awful too. Lariat is because of the side being random, so you can't "premove" at all, it's more move > stop > move.
(I still agree with you, I feel this is an instance where melee need to sweat as much as casters, which makes it strange some people say that "melee is free"... it's not in these two fights).

For sure. The only reason I even mentioned SMN is because this person is jumping down my throat about everything right now when BLM is the exception, not the rule. I get that as far as mobility goes, BLM has it a lot harder.

I still contend that with saved triple casts, xenoglossies, swift casts, fire IIIs, paradox, etc, (and Holy on PCT) you can probably get through it with full uptime even on BLM in a safer fashion than melees, but I would have to do it to be sure. When I say "easier for casters" in this case, I generally mean to avoid hearts and dying in general. But there's some stuff in these fights that's messed up for all roles, and I'm sure there's no shortage of canceled casts in this stuff.

Which is great! They're super fun on every job I've tried them on. Can't wait for savage!

[rewd]

Well, this is a thread about melees, not cast times?... I could talk about what mechanics are really harsh for casters, if you want. But I'm only "making a big deal about melee" because this is a melee thread... I only keep mentioning content like Valigarmanda or Shadowbringers because you're jumping down my throat making wild accusations at me and I have to defend myself. You never literally say "you think casters are easy," but you describe me as part of a melee circlejerk and that I am meleesplaining your role. Those are accusations, my friend.

Anyways, I agree that BLM is a different job right now. But with experiences that I had on BLM, I can triangulate my opinions on current BLM. For instance, the heart mechanic is very similar to one of Byakko EX's Aramitama mechanics, where you are dodging orbs that radiate from the center of the arena. I did that on BLM and found it easy. From the PoVs of BLM I have watched, heart looks pretty easy too if you move away from other players so you arent getting extra AoE baits. But I'll be sure to let you know when I level it.

I earnestly believe these two mechanics are easier on casters. RDM aside, I think every fight in the game is easy on SMN. And you keep ignoring that I have spoken to and watched people play these jobs! If, to have an opinion about something, you had to be the best player in the world at that thing, then none of us could ever talk about jobs ever again.

I truly do feel it's easier. You can try and ignore the things I'm mentioning to prove I have no expertise, but it just digs a deeper hole for you.

It's a melee thread... And you talked about casters. I can quote the exact message if you want (but there's no need to).

I'm not making "wild accusations", I'm describing reality. You are saying those mechanics are very easy on casters, I'm saying you only played RDM. Is it wrong? No, so it's not an accusation. If we want to talk about accusations, let's not forget you were the one accusing me of something I never said...

Anyway, I'm sorry but arguing with you is a complete waste of time, so I'll stop here. "M2 is easy on BLM because I did Byakko EX 6 years ago and found it easy" is an insult to one's intelligence. Not to mention how you default to SMN when we are speaking about casters (otherwise, we would be saying magical ranged DPS) because it is convenient for you. You are not in good faith, so cheers.

[W00by]

Well, I brought up casters in comparison to melee. It was one small sentence about positionals being hard in certain mechanics is sometimes harder than casters, and you turned it into all this. Judging by other player's responses, I don' think I'm out of line here.

You're still ignoring the insights I have from other stuff, just harping on "you only play RDM!" when I've repeatedly demonstrated understanding beyond that, but I'll tell you what, rewd. I like ya. If you can provide one piece of evidence to me that proves you're a really good BLM player--that your angry ravings are worth as much as the years of experience of myself and other players--I will rescind everything I've said. It can be an impressive log, or proof of an Ultimate clear on BLM, or a vod of you playing.

If you can show me that you are impressive at BLM, then I will believe you. But right now, your hollow arguments don't prove anything and I will trust the words of experienced players like myself and my friends. Until you can do that, I have to assume you're just raging over personal frustrations.

[Lyth]

The reason why casts come up in this discussion is because if someone wants to argue that 'positionals' are not intrinsic to Melee DPS, then they also have to concede that 'casts' are not intrinsic to Magical Ranged DPS. It just so happens that in this game, Melee have positionals and Magical Ranged have casts and they are viewed as a part of the 'identity' of their respective roles in this game.

I also think it's worth mentioning that positional elements aren't exclusive to this game, either. Positional attacks in RPG games are as old as D&D's backstab, and there are other MMOs that have incorporated positional elements before, Lost Ark being an example off the top of my head. In fact, some of these games have physical ranged positionals too. It's really just a way of adding an additional spatial/positioning consideration to gameplay.

If you want to have a role-based system in an MMO, it's important to preserve role identity. One of the big problems that we've seen in support roles is devaluing them by removing key gameplay elements. We have tanks who have diminished positioning and mitigation responsibilities and healers who have diminished healing and mitigation responsibilities, all in the name of 'accessibility'. We don't need to bring that across to DPS.

I think the dev team have made both Melee and Magical Ranged DPS very accessible to players who want to play those roles for aesthetic purposes but have no specific interest in self-improvement. All that people are asking for is that you also allow some room to preserve skill expression on these roles.

[Galvuu]

The reason why casts come up in this discussion is because if someone wants to argue that 'positionals' are not intrinsic to Melee DPS, then they also have to concede that 'casts' are not intrinsic to Magical Ranged DPS. It just so happens that in this game, Melee have positionals and Magical Ranged have casts and they are viewed as a part of the 'identity' of their respective roles in this game.

I'm on the camp that thinks positionals are part of the defining traits of a melee dps in XIV, but the argument made by some people is that it's "cast bars VS short range". That is, the analog to cast bars is the melee constraint, not the positionals.
I, personally, don't agree with that in terms of design, but I can see where they're coming from.

[Miralyth]

Hey, does anyone know if samurai or summoner spends more time casting? Is ten chi jin casting a spell, even if you don't see a bar? Is flamethrower a positional spell? What if red mage's melee combo had positionals? What if harpe had a positional? Is paladin a melee if you're good at the game, but a caster if you're not good at it, or is it a tank? If a paladin is a caster-tank, or a melee-tank, or a caster-melee-tank, is a samurai a caster-melee? Is samurai a healer-caster-melee if you're good at the game? Is a red mage a melee-caster, or does it need positionals to qualify?

[CKNovel]

I'm on the camp that thinks positionals are part of the defining traits of a melee dps in XIV, but the argument made by some people is that it's "cast bars VS short range". That is, the analog to cast bars is the melee constraint, not the positionals.
I, personally, don't agree with that in terms of design, but I can see where they're coming from.

Seeking melee uptime has been gone for a long time, I wish they prioritized that instead of positionals.
But at the same time I get the feeling that if all positionals were removed, you'd be completely static as a melee, so I can understand the appeal of dancing around the target.

In my opinion, bosses should have their front working as back positional as well instead of being inconsistent and giving free positionals to some bosses.
And just don't design mechanics around positionals, true north exist for this purpose.

[AddictedToWitches]

I hear this a lot, but never any suggestions, and no, making everything rear and flank isn't the solution as you effectively get rid of positionals.

The suggestion is to just get rid of positionals in the same way they got rid of TP and enmity management for non-tanks.
I feel like they could make melee jobs and fights more interesting if they didn't have positionals. Plenty of melee jobs are still very interesting even if you ignore the positionals entirely. Which on most difficult savage and ultimate fights you just pop true north for the tricky segments anyway.
While we're add it let's get rid of gear durability too because that's another archaic game system that is trivialized by just paying attention.

[CKNovel]

The suggestion is to just get rid of positionals in the same way they got rid of TP and enmity management for non-tanks.
I feel like they could make melee jobs and fights more interesting if they didn't have positionals. Plenty of melee jobs are still very interesting even if you ignore the positionals entirely. Which on most difficult savage and ultimate fights you just pop true north for the tricky segments anyway.

I think you'd lose more by straight up removing positionals.
Melee would suddenly becomes way too static and stale if positionals were straight up removed instead of being reworked.

What if instead positionals would grant buff/inflict debuff with a timer long enough so that even if you miss some of them, you can still get the maximum value?
A bit like Viper, his debuff is 50% managed by Dreadwinder and the remaining 50% is on the player.

[AvoSturmfaust]

I dont see a reason to remove positionals if im honest, its a way for player to be better then other players and i think its fine, to clear content you dont need to even bother to do 1 positional its just a potency loss, not a combobreak or anything so just keep them.