Square obviously not listening to feedback

[Mikey_R]

Pretty sure there is a disconnect somewhere in job design when PvE and PvP are so different from one another.

This is purely down to the fact that PvP and PvE are 2 completely different environments and so have different considerations. They also do not need to perfectly balance every DPS in PvP against each other as they can all fill different roles and help the party in different ways. Compare that to PvE where you need to have the DPS of jobs be roughly the same and all have similar tools, else, if a fight requires a tool, you make a certain job mandatory.

There is so much more to consider between the 2, so that is a very simplified comparison, however, it should show that it isn't as easy as just making them the same.

[Valence]

Pvp balancing is infinitely more complex with thousand more variables than pve, and a lot of them are incredibly hard to figure out because of the sheer level of abstraction. The latter may have constraints limiting creativity, but let's not say the former is any easier to deal with.

[Flay_wind]

My understanding was that CBU3 brought in an outside team to design the PvP kits, so I imagine there's a clear disconnect because it's a different design team.

But also, the PvP kits are massively easier to implement and fine tune since there's so much fewer design constraints. You don't have to worry about what the kits look like as they level up. You don't have to worry about how much change there is a rotation once a new skill is added. The PvE kits by their nature as a series of rewards means that each additional item needs to make sense with the progressive whole.

The PvP kits also don't have to worry if you have sufficient potency to clear a bit of content, do Ulimates MINE, etc. So, while I love the PvP kits I also recognize that the PvE task is many times harder.

PvP kits also make sense and you could copy paste quite a lot of things from PvP to PvE and it will be great.
Like take DRK's PvP Salted Earth.
Draws enemies in, provides regen and mitigation while staying in the Salted Earth AoE. It does everything that DRK in PvE would want, but no, PvE Salted Earth is just a DoT puddle.

[Sjol]

Pvp balancing is infinitely more complex with thousand more variables than pve, and a lot of them are incredibly hard to figure out because of the sheer level of abstraction. The latter may have constraints limiting creativity, but let's not say the former is any easier to deal with.

I do think that PvP has to deal with humans, but being symmetric makes things a lot easier. "If it's broken for me, it's also broken for you." I do think PvP has a lot of different design issues that are unique to it, but the big advantage that it only has to look at the completed state and not any growth states (sub-max-level), is a huge simplification.

I would like to hear what you mean by "sheer level of abstraction", though to get a better understanding of what you're saying.

[Sjol]

PvP kits also make sense and you could copy paste quite a lot of things from PvP to PvE and it will be great.
Like take DRK's PvP Salted Earth.
Draws enemies in, provides regen and mitigation while staying the Salted Earth AoE. It does everything that DRK in PvE would want, but no, PvE Salted Earth is just a DoT puddle.

Agreed that they could give more flavor. I do think SE has kind of designed themselves into a corner because so much of the high-end content is boss-only with little to no trash where you would get to use the more flavorful abilities. It would still be fun in FATEs and Alliance Raids, but I doubt they clearly couldn't work on most bosses without breaking the encounter (admittedly something I find annoying about their boss design).

[Valence]

I do think that PvP has to deal with humans, but being symmetric makes things a lot easier. "If it's broken for me, it's also broken for you." I do think PvP has a lot of different design issues that are unique to it, but the big advantage that it only has to look at the completed state and not any growth states (sub-max-level), is a huge simplification.

I would like to hear what you mean by "sheer level of abstraction", though to get a better understanding of what you're saying.

If it's broken symmetrically it's essentially the worst you could wish for a pvp roster since some meta jobs will be used by everybody and dominating everything that's not part of it, and you end up with identical matchups on both ends. Which is on the verge of happening in actual LPs in the CCRC. Fortunately the balance is still decent and everything is viable even in ranked otherwise.

It's not as easy as it seems, quite the opposite. In fact, it's so sensitive that meta is a lot more prevalent in pvp than pve in XIV.

The level of abstraction is everything that doesn't rely on strict mathematical numbers, which is a sheer chunk of pvp (unlike for the current damage focused pve model).

[RyuuZero]

I'd say PvP is the saving grace of FFXIV's Gameplay since 6.1
Just sad that they gotta add FOMO through the PvP Battle Pass and didn't add past Battle Pass Exclusive Items to the PvP Item Seller NPC.. Noo.. but thankfully we don't have to pay extra for the battle pass..
but Crystalline Conflict still needs some work like being able to queue as a Party!
or maybe adding a fixed Comp like 1Tank/2DPS/2Healers for example

[Taranok]

PvP kits also make sense and you could copy paste quite a lot of things from PvP to PvE and it will be great.
Like take DRK's PvP Salted Earth.
Draws enemies in, provides regen and mitigation while staying the Salted Earth AoE. It does everything that DRK in PvE would want, but no, PvE Salted Earth is just a DoT puddle.

Also, you know, PVP combos. While I don't necessarily agree with combining literally every 1-2-3 combo into 1 button push, for things like red mage's melee combo, pressing 1 button 3 times instead of 3 buttons 1 time would be extremely welcome. Also helps with times where the game reads an accidental second input.

PVP also focuses on no-nonsense gameplay, where they don't add anything unless there's a lot of good use cases for it. PvE has a lot of unnecessary bloat often for the sake of it. For example, SAM never benefited from having as many buttons as it has. Such as there is no benefit for having both shoha and shoha 2. They're both low use, you're only using one anyways 90% of the time, just get rid of the distinction.

This isn't to be interpreted as: "Just turn everyone into summoner!" But in terms of job design, SMN is one of the better designed classes in the game despite complaints of it being too simple. And as per job popularity, it definitely is overwhelmingly the most popular job in endwalker, which means devs should at least take a few points from SMN's design and extend that to other classes, which seems true-ish for both PICT and VPR.

[Valence]

The secret sauce of pvp toolkits is the amount of additional and secondary effects that come with every ability and offers various boni to take advantage of or that build on top of each other when used properly.

[Sjol]

The secret sauce of pvp toolkits is the amount of additional and secondary effects that come with every ability and offers various boni to take advantage of or that build on top of each other when used properly.

I would imagine most of those side effects would not work against bosses and trash is so simple in this game that it doesn't really matter there. Things that wouldn't work:

* can't barrier (WAR)
* forced movement
* most CC
* non-GCD/oGCD aimed abilities (DRG)
* hidden (NIN) -- though why the hell not
* DoTs while standing in circle -- boss resets would be a problem