2 melee 2 ranged standard

[Ramiee]

Just curious what people think about this being the standard for DPS set up in hard content.
Wanna know if people think this should remain the rigid standard that never changes or DPS in comps can be more, more melee or more casters or more phys or whatever you think.

Me personally, I think it's okay as a standard but some people take it too rigidly, sometimes 2 casters 1 melee and 1 Phys ranged can be really good. Reminds me of the standard for pure and barrier healer, really you can bring both of the sub role.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

There used to be comps that dropped casters entirely early Stormblood with DRG-NIN-BRD-MCH and on certain fights people even ran triple melee. Double caster or double phys ranged with a single melee was also viable, but generally it meant not mixing SMN and RDM, both in damage numbers and buff synergy.

Double melee will remain supreme as long as the damage numbers remain melee-favoured. Right know I can see Pictomancer play in a pseudo melee position, especially if BLM gets sufficient buffs to damage on tuesday, allowing for double caster (high damage). You can also bring RDM or SMN in place of BLM for prog if you favour a caster raise.

Long story short, it's all about damage first, utility second and ranged advantage third. If double melee has no spacing or uptime struggles and keep the numbers high, it will remain meta.

[Lyth]

It's a bad idea from a fight design standpoint. 2/2/2/2 design is built around the idea that there are going to be four jobs that are obligate melee ranged, so you're constrained to resolve mechanics in a way that let four players maintain contact with the boss. If you add in an additional ranged as 'fake melee', then they can be off in another arena while the remaining three melee range jobs have comfy access to the boss. You're essentially bypassing constraints that designers can place on mechanics.

I also think that the current treatment of magical and physical ranged as 'separate roles' grows more superfluous with each passing expansion. PCT is highly mobile, lacks MP dependence, and comes with its own raidwide mitigation. They could have designated this as a physical ranged job if they wanted to. If physical ranged jobs automatically do less damage than magical ranged without even offering raise, it becomes hard to see the value in the role. They should probably abolish the requirement for one distinct magical ranged and one distinct physical ranged at this point and treat it as a single role with two slots.

I wonder if the long-term goal is for double caster to replace the physical ranged requirement.

[rewd]

PCT is highly mobile, lacks MP dependence, and comes with its own raidwide mitigation. They could have designated this as a physical ranged job if they wanted to.

This forum has the most insane takes on caster jobs, it's crazy.

[W00by]

Would you like to give some evidence for why you feel that this Picto take is insane? Smudge is among the best mobility skills in the game, and Swiftcast + Hammer Motif + Hammer Muse + Hammer Combo is an incredibly strong mobility resource that the Picto can move around between burst phases on the odd minute. Swiftcast + Motif in general is a stronger Swiftcast option than certain other hard casters have. I, too, think PCT is highly mobile when played at a high level.

[Supersnow845]

Would you like to give some evidence for why you feel that this Picto take is insane? Smudge is among the best mobility skills in the game, and Swiftcast + Hammer Motif + Hammer Muse + Hammer Combo is an incredibly strong mobility resource that the Picto can move around between burst phases on the odd minute. Swiftcast + Motif in general is a stronger Swiftcast option than certain other hard casters have. I, too, think PCT is highly mobile when played at a high level.

The fact that PCT and BLM have far wider IQR’s than the melee indicates that people struggle much more to maximise their uptime compared to the melee

[W00by]

I don't disagree that there is a struggle for the majority of players when compared to melee, that's not what I mean at all.

I simply mean when all tools are used properly, Picto has a very high control over when to use its longest cast times and super strong mobility skills beyond that. Just because people aren't using them necessarily doesn't mean they aren't there.

[rewd]

Would you like to give some evidence for why you feel that this Picto take is insane? Smudge is among the best mobility skills in the game, and Swiftcast + Hammer Motif + Hammer Muse + Hammer Combo is an incredibly strong mobility resource that the Picto can move around between burst phases on the odd minute. Swiftcast + Motif in general is a stronger Swiftcast option than certain other hard casters have. I, too, think PCT is highly mobile when played at a high level.

You are asking for evidence why saying that PCT plays more like DNC/MCH/BRD instead of RDM/BLM? Are you trolling or are you actually serious?

[Ayche]

It's a bad idea from a fight design standpoint. 2/2/2/2 design is built around the idea that there are going to be four jobs that are obligate melee ranged, so you're constrained to resolve mechanics in a way that let four players maintain contact with the boss. If you add in an additional ranged as 'fake melee', then they can be off in another arena while the remaining three melee range jobs have comfy access to the boss. You're essentially bypassing constraints that designers can place on mechanics.

Constraints are to the benefit of the players too. A sudden shift in the paradigm where one wing or even one raid encounter could no longer fit 4 melee roles into it would just create an unnecessary trap for the player base. And in the situation where all four melee roles cannot be easily solved for good uptime, you can always punt the paladin or any tank to the sidelines and make them do some ranged attacks in the corner.

In all honesty, it only sounds interesting as a thought experiment and probably not very exciting to play. Like I can also think about "what if we made a fight where a healer is never allowed to be near to their party, that would make using aoe heals so much harder!" but would that actually be fun?

[Reginald_Cain]

It's a bad idea from a fight design standpoint. 2/2/2/2 design is built around the idea that there are going to be four jobs that are obligate melee ranged, so you're constrained to resolve mechanics in a way that let four players maintain contact with the boss. If you add in an additional ranged as 'fake melee', then they can be off in another arena while the remaining three melee range jobs have comfy access to the boss. You're essentially bypassing constraints that designers can place on mechanics.

I also think that the current treatment of magical and physical ranged as 'separate roles' grows more superfluous with each passing expansion. PCT is highly mobile, lacks MP dependence, and comes with its own raidwide mitigation. They could have designated this as a physical ranged job if they wanted to. If physical ranged jobs automatically do less damage than magical ranged without even offering raise, it becomes hard to see the value in the role. They should probably abolish the requirement for one distinct magical ranged and one distinct physical ranged at this point and treat it as a single role with two slots.

I wonder if the long-term goal is for double caster to replace the physical ranged requirement.

How is picto highly mobile? it's no better than red mage and slightly better than black mage in terms of mobility. Summoner on the other hand is a phys ranged in caster clothing. Do a fight with lots of ping based physics defying balls like Arcadion 2 or Strayborough Deadwalk boss 1. I no way you're not dropping a gcd without taking a hit on Picto.