The problem with Tripling Down on Shadowbringers Job Design

[Striker44]

So what’s the point of job lobotomization if it still fails to achieve perfect balance?

If I took a test and failed with a score of 20%, then studied for my next one and scored 80%, should I conclude that there was no point to studying because it didn't get me a perfect 100%? Of course not. A change doesn't have to make something "perfect" to be worthwhile - simply being "immensely better" can fit the bill.

[Valence]

It’s so funny to me how when Heavensward or Stormblood are brought up by someone missing how jobs felt more fun to play back then, that someone inevitably starts complaining about the job balance back then (which is, you know not the point) because Endwalker balance is so perfect and flawless of course, with WAR being the perfect trifecta of most brain dead, strongest damage, and strongest sustain for some reason. Not to mention RDM’s damage is painfully low, DNC was very undertuned in tier 1, MCH was very undertuned for tier 1 and 2, PLD’s emergency warriorification was so important, it couldn’t wait for 7.0 apparently… Jobs are as homogenized, simplified, and neutered as ever and yet balance is still a problem.

So what’s the point of job lobotomization if it still fails to achieve perfect balance?

MCH is still a third class of its own, below the second dps group (ranged jobs), if you go about cDPS metrics. It's way behind everything else, it's just sad. That's the whole MCH's story since its rework in ShB, always bottom DPS job.

[ty_taurus]

If I took a test and failed with a score of 20%, then studied for my next one and scored 80%, should I conclude that there was no point to studying because it didn't get me a perfect 100%? Of course not. A change doesn't have to make something "perfect" to be worthwhile - simply being "immensely better" can fit the bill.

I think “immensely better” is highly questionable. The current balance is in some ways more jank than it used to be.

Both now and in the past, all jobs are viable. But because of how homogenized the jobs are, the jobs that are worse are hard to justify because there’s virtually nothing else they bring to the table that other jobs can’t do. You can still bring them because again, everything is viable like it was in the past as well, but RDM for example has almost no merit compared to SMN who also has a raise, deals more damage, has more mobility, and has been reduced to almost healer level gameplay but without the healing.

[Striker44]

I think “immensely better” is highly questionable. The current balance is in some ways more jank than it used to be.

For the record, I wasn't commenting on whether this particular situation is immensely better, just pointing out what I saw as a significant flaw in the logic being used.

Also for the record, all jobs were not viable in the past the way they are now. This thread itself is filled with examples of jobs at various points in the earlier years (ARR/HW/SB) that were "must-have" and others that were effectively blacklisted. Even if all jobs aren't perfectly balanced now, they are all viable in a way that wasn't the case in earlier iterations of job design.

[ty_taurus]

For the record, I wasn't commenting on whether this particular situation is immensely better, just pointing out what I saw as a significant flaw in the logic being used.

Also for the record, all jobs were not viable in the past the way they are now. This thread itself is filled with examples of jobs at various points in the earlier years (ARR/HW/SB) that were "must-have" and others that were effectively blacklisted. Even if all jobs aren't perfectly balanced now, they are all viable in a way that wasn't the case in earlier iterations of job design.

I get what you mean, and that is definitely true of the language I used. I did mean it more with the specific state of FFXIV balance in mind where Endwalker's balance is specifically not particularly better than the balance of Heavensward or Stormblood. It's more balanced in some spots, but less in others, so in using your example, it's less like getting a score of 20% vs getting a score of 80%, and more like you swapped which questions on the test you got correct from one set of 20 questions to a different set of 20 questions, but you still only got a 20%.

But your example also brings up an important question: What is greater balance worth? Is it worth massively homogenizing all jobs to ensure they are as close to perfectly balanced as possible? Because I don't think so. Balance is important, but fun is more important than balance. I have no interest in playing a game that is dull and lifeless regardless of how balanced its classes are, but I will gladly play a fun, yet unbalanced game where not all classes are treated equal, but all of them are at least viable and offer some unique advantage that only they can provide in their given role. And that has almost exclusively been true of both Heavensward and Stormblood. We have a few exceptions like Scholar at the launch of 4.0, but that was corrected almost immediately. And that's okay in my book.

[Aravell]

Also for the record, all jobs were not viable in the past the way they are now. This thread itself is filled with examples of jobs at various points in the earlier years (ARR/HW/SB) that were "must-have" and others that were effectively blacklisted. Even if all jobs aren't perfectly balanced now, they are all viable in a way that wasn't the case in earlier iterations of job design.

I think you and a lot of other people are conflating "effectively blacklisted" with "unviable". Every job was viable in HW/SB, just because people chose to lock certain jobs out of PF does not diminish the viability of that job.

The balance back then may not have been perfect (neither is it perfect as it is now), but it was fine because every job could clear content. If players choose to lock out a job, that's not the problem of the developer, that's the problem of the playerbase.

[Graveyardprincess]

To be honest every job outside of summoner was at its peak in stormblood, every change after as been worse and worse to all the older jobs. Summoner in EW FINALLY became what it should have been in 2.0 a real summoner not a wow afflication warlock like it was.

I'm sorry but original ast in stormblood was about the coolest and funnest job to play, and if you were smart and knew when and how to use your cards you could basicly turn your team to gods. For example when arrow gave haste it was amazing on blms

[Supersnow845]

Why was HW design bad because PLD got locked out but EW design is somehow good despite there being periods when WHM/MCH/SGE all got locked out for various reasons

People seem to have totally blocked out the fact that WHM was an absolute trash fire on 6.0 launch and that it was hard to get a savage spot for it and good luck even trying to use the two selfish healers in DSR

[Aravell]

Why was HW design bad because PLD got locked out but EW design is somehow good despite there being periods when WHM/MCH/SGE all got locked out for various reasons

People seem to have totally blocked out the fact that WHM was an absolute trash fire on 6.0 launch and that it was hard to get a savage spot for it and good luck even trying to use the two selfish healers in DSR

The funny part is that "HW bad because PLD got locked out of 2 tiers because of heavy magic damage that they can't blocked" but "EW good even though PLD got locked out for 2 tiers because their damage sucked".

End result is the same, but EW is better for some reason.

[Emitans]

The funny part is that "HW bad because PLD got locked out of 2 tiers because of heavy magic damage that they can't blocked" but "EW good even though PLD got locked out for 2 tiers because their damage sucked".

End result is the same, but EW is better for some reason.

PLD locked out of HW because magic couldn't be blocked. Thank god they fixed that. There definitely wasn't a four month period this expansion where PLD was not wanted because it could not block incoming damage.