The problem with Tripling Down on Shadowbringers Job Design

[Valence]

Could you provide an example of how you would adapt a PvP kit for use in PvE?

An RDM example (it's going to be wild):

1) RDM keeps its pve combo and dualcast, no problem there. The melee combo can also stay, and in fact it's also used in pvp even if Resolution is detached from it.

2) Introduce White and Black shift.
- Black Shift is focused on damage
- White Shift is focused on utility and restorative
- It is possible to swap between White and Black shift instantly like in pvp, with almost no recast timer, allowing to switch on the fly right in the middle of a combo.

3) Black Shift
- Spell combos: increased potency
- Melee combo: potent dot stacks per melee hit

4) White Shift
- Spell combos: no cast times
- Melee combo: barrier stacks per melee hit (probably only used for heavy damage or solo purposes)

5) Corps-à-corps & Displacement (multiple charges like today)
- Inflicts target with monomachy: +10% damage dealt to target (used before the melee combo for example) and -10% target taken from target (used to self mitigate, no more sad red mages noises with no manaward)

6) Spell procs (verfire, verstone) work like today, and the game becomes how you use your white spells for mobility and your black spells for power.

7) Mana gauge
- Melee combos consume only one side of the gauge, which is based on whether you use melee hits in black or white shift.
- Ending on Redoublement in white shift unlocks Verholy, which is instant cast and AoE heals around the RDM. Ending on Redoublement in black shift unlocks Verflare, which has a cast time and deals more damage.
- It is still required to keep the gauge balanced like today, but reaching imbalance instead makes it harder to accumulate the higher of the two.

8) Magicked Barrier is only available under White Shift and costs white mana (+ cooldown). Same for Vercure and Verraise (very steep white cost on top of MP cost).
- Can justify white shift even when not required by mobility

9) Black and White shift play
- The idea is to juggle the balance between both gauges like today, and go into black or white shift depending on the situation (mobility, damage, heal/support...)

10) Grand Cross (120s cd): used in white Shift heals a crapton an AoE around the target, and used in black Shift grants Embolden/Frazzle to everybody hit around the target (works like pve embolden)


Now you can move as a RDM, not just with reprise or melee combos.

[Zadood]

Endwalker released on December 7th, 2021 and Dawntrail releases on July 2nd, 2024. Based on that, we could assume 8.0 will release on December 10th, 2026 (which will be a consistent 2 and a half years).

If they try really hard to make it like other expansions and reduce the patch lull from 8-9 months to 5 like in the past, then they might manage July, but so far things have only got longer.

Isn't someone else in forum has pointed out the expansion credit rolls has showed that the size of FFXIV development team has increased?

The size of development team has increased.
Yet the months between patch release is increased, at the same time the amount of content on patch release is getting lesser and lesser.
While they also decided that island sanctuary will no longer supported in DT.

Strange don't you think? That even with the size of development team increased, they still refused to dedicate themselves on develop the big content feature they introduced on expansion such as GC rank and squadron, deep dungeon, eureka/bozja, hard mode dungeon, recently island sanctuary. And dropped some of introduced big feature on some expansion.

According to what I have gather so far...

SB expansion introduced ultimate raid, introduced field operation such as eureka, continued hard mode dungeon as well as optional dungeon, continued optional boss trial questline, continued deep dungeon, introduced Blue Mage.

SHB expansion dropped hard mode dungeon, turn optional dungeon into MSQ dungeon, dropped deep dungeon, delayed ultimate raid to EW expansion, continued field operation as Bozja, continued optional boss trial, continued Blue Mage

EW expansion introduced Island Sanctuary, merged optional dungeon with optional boss trial into part of the MSQ, introduced PVP Crystal Conflict, introduced Criterion Dungeon, dropped field operation, re-continued deep dungeon, released ultimate raid that supposed to released in SHB, continued Blue Mage

DT expansion, according on what we got so far, dropped Island Sanctuary, continued field operation, continued deep dungeon, continued Criterion Dungeon, continued PVP Crystal Conflict, as the other still waiting for confirmation on Dawntrail release.

PVP so far is the only big feature that has done right and still receive update and support.
And Criterion can done well with proper reward structure.

[Jeeqbit]

Isn't someone else in forum has pointed out the expansion credit rolls has showed that the size of FFXIV development team has increased?

That would have been me since I point that out usually.

Yet the months between patch release is increased

Yes, primarily so they can have enough of a break. Yoshi-P has always made sure that people avoid burnout, have opportunities to transfer to new roles or departments, to take breaks and has also forced people to take breaks if they refuse to. Preventing burnout is integral to this so providing more holidays is in line with this.

at the same time the amount of content on patch release is getting lesser and lesser.

That is not true. The content that is released is just not necessarily of interest to the people making these complaints ie. they aren't interested in variant dungeons, Eureka Orthos, Island Sanctuary, Ishgard Restoration and Ocean Fishing.

While they also decided that island sanctuary will no longer supported in DT.

This is not unexpected. They don't typically continue developing content like this once the expansion is over. Eureka was exclusively developed during Stormblood. The Firmament and Bozja were exclusively developed in Shadowbringers. Island Sanctuary will more than likely remain exclusive to Endwalker.

They might continue them when it makes sense to ie. more Ocean Fishing routes, but if it looks like something has "run its course", it probably has, and let's be honest, what really more is there to do with Island Sanctuary?

Strange don't you think? That even with the size of development team increased, they still refused to dedicate themselves on develop the big content feature they introduced on expansion

It is a little strange, but remember that the bigger the game gets, the more overhead there is ie. they have to balance things around more jobs, they have to QA more things, they have to adjust gear for more races, they have to make new models for more jobs each expansion ie. over 20 weapons now instead of around 10.

But also, the added development team is most in certain areas, like AI or web development. Got to remember that diminishing returns is a thing, and also that people quit/retire and have to train new staff. For example, some of the people who went to work on FF16 slowly trained other staff before moving over through Heavensward and Stormblood. I remember reading about Soken training people in Shadowbringers etc.

Much as the community may love the veteran developers, they also can't not be thinking about the future generations given their age.

The bigger thing for me is AI not resulting in a reduction in development time yet.

such as GC rank and squadron, deep dungeon, eureka/bozja, hard mode dungeon, recently island sanctuary.

GC rank and squadron isn't really popular enough as a concept tbh. Deep dungeons were completed and didn't need further development. Eureka was completed and didn't need further development. Bozja was completed (and yes the rest of the story was concluded, in the field records, for whatever reason), Island Sanctuary can't really have much more done (more visions, another mine, some more items to gather, come on... what's the point).

Hard Mode dungeons (which weren't hard for most of their time) were discontinued because we simply had enough dungeons. We were approaching 100 dungeons and the entire point in making them was when the game started, it hardly had any dungeons vs its main competitor (WoW). Now it does. The resources were invested in other areas.

And dropped some of introduced big feature on some expansion.

Related to resources being reinvested. Arguably, we are getting more this expansion than the last because we are getting everything we got in Shadowbringers + the new things we got in Endwalker (like variant/criterion dungeons), most likely more than 1 ultimate as well, plus the graphics update.

SB expansion introduced ultimate raid, introduced field operation such as eureka, continued hard mode dungeon as well as optional dungeon

Context is a type of content like Eureka existed in Heavensward called Diadem, but it was a failure for various reasons. Although they quadrupled the amount of Diadem-like areas in SB. They reduced dungeon development in Stormblood from 2 per patch to 1 > 2 > 1 > 2 > 1 to allow for this extra Eureka development.

SHB expansion dropped hard mode dungeon, turn optional dungeon into MSQ dungeon, dropped deep dungeon, delayed ultimate raid to EW expansion, continued field operation as Bozja

You missed a lot of stuff. Yes, ShB dropped 2 optional dungeons and 2 Field Operation areas, but in its place was:

Ocean Fishing, Ishgard Restoration (which was a massive player event spanning many patches of development you can watch on youtube and culminated in a new housing area), a crafter/gatherer rework, an ARR rework which saw flying added, a lot more raids in the Field Operation (instead of 1 like Eureka, we had CLL, Dalriada, DR, and a savage version of DR) and many of the CEs were designed more like dungeon bosses and frequently wiped everyone there, or left a few people to solo it, not to mention the duel content. Most of this was more mechanically complex than the NMs in Eureka, many of which were more like the Skirmishes in Bozja.

Remember this was all despite covid and despite working from home and despite all the companies they outsource to delaying things and despite a semiconductor shortage and despite what Soken went through. Delaying an ultimate and EW and not bothering with a little throwaway thing like Allied Beast Tribe Quests was understandable given all these things.

EW expansion introduced Island Sanctuary, merged optional dungeon with optional boss trial into part of the MSQ, introduced PVP Crystal Conflict, introduced Criterion Dungeon, dropped field operation, re-continued deep dungeon

EW dropped field operation, but revamped all MSQ dungeons and duties and indicators and as you said, added a new PvP mode, 5 series, several new PvP maps, a new content type (3 variant and 3 criterion) and Island Sanctuary and resumed the deep dungeon.

Quite frankly, we can argue that MSQ duty rework, Island Sanctuary, variant/criterion and deep dungeon replaced the Ishgard Restoration and Field Operation content cycle from ShB.

DT expansion, according on what we got so far, dropped Island Sanctuary

Cosmic Exploration should be seen as the successor. But it will be more like Ishgard Restoration than Island Sanctuary.

[ty_taurus]

Could you provide an example of how you would adapt a PvP kit for use in PvE?

For Sage:

> Eukrasian Dosis I/II/III duration reduced from 30 seconds to 15 seconds.
> Phlegma I/II/IIIcooldown reduced from 40 seconds to 20 seconds.
> Pneuma reworked: potency significantly increased, cooldown reduced to 55 seconds, healing effect removed; now grants 3 layers of Panhaima-style layered barriers that lasts 30 seconds.
> Toxikon changed from a GCD spell to an OGCD ability with 3 charges and a 10 second recast timer; potency reduced. Does not consume Addersting; separate from Toxikon II.
> New attack spell: same potency as Dosis I/II/III, higher MP cost, Applies a barrier on Kardion target for 8 seconds; if this barrier breaks, grants Addersting.
> Toxikon II changed from a GCD spell to an OGCD ability that costs Addersting, potency is the same as Dosis I/II/III.

^ That would be a start.

[Valence]

It's worth noting right off the bat there is a contradiction in your list. You initially stated that the tools would rotate like in PvP, so it starts Drill, on use it turns into Bio Blaster, which turns into Air Anchor then into Chainsaw before going back to drill, however, in point 6 where you give an 'ideal' burst, you start with Drill, oGCDs, then Air Anchor. By my reasoning, that cannot happen. Either that or there is something I am missing.

As to the thing as a whole, you have basically made PvE MCH with the following changes (for ST):
1. 4 step combo with no Battery Generation.
2. Hypercharge generates Battery, presumably to replace the Battery lost from the combo.
3. Rather than alternating Gauss Round and Ricochet, you mainly just use Gauss Round, though I assume Ricochet is still used, it just won't have its cooldown shortened by Heat Blast.
4. Scattergun is now a high potency attack with 50% damage fall off (and a ridiculously strong effect of reducing Reassembles cooldown per enemy hit). I will also assume it has a cooldown since we are basing this off of the PvP kit and you didn't mention otherwise.
5. 2 Turrets, one to debuff the enemy and one to do damage.

I will assume you flubbed the opener when referring to tools and so will assume they work like PvP, with a 15 second cooldown (as you said you can do 1 full rotation a minute) with 2 charges. With Air Anchor being as crucial to burst as it is, I don't see it lining up without having to hold charges and wasting the cooldown. As for the comment on choices to make with the tool. If it is like PvP, you have no choice, you rotate through them getting to the one that gives the most damage when you need it (reassembled Air Anchor in Burst). if they are separate, then you have 2 for AoE and 2 for ST, unless those AoE tools have potencies which allow them to be used in ST, in which case, I now have 4 tools fighting foe the same spot, Air Anchor is Burst starter, Assuming Drill is highest potency, what use do the other 2 have?

As for the Sniper Rifle, a 2 minute cooldown attack, thought people hated those? Even if you wanted to tie it to a resource, it is still a 2 minute cooldown.

Now, regardless of all that. This whole thing was started as an exercise to adapt the PvP kit into a PvE environment. So, what makes your kit more suited to that environment compared to the current PvE set? Why is yours better?



You will be in Black Shift 99% of the time, unless you need movement, making the whole mechanic seem almost pointless. Remember, damage is the aim. In parties, you have healers do do the healing and mitigating (along with Tanks), so that extra 'utility' in White Shift is pointless. In solo play, it might be more interesting, having to balance out White and Black in order to properly keep yourself alive.

Good catch. Oops. You could reorder the list of tools. Also, you'd probably need to rework a little bio and chainsaw to make them stand out more in single target scenari since everything they do is tailored for AoE. After all, it's not like I spent 3 years designing this reply to smooth everything out, it was just musings at best.

You basically missed the whole point behind, and perhaps I should have been less into the gritty details to prevent you to literally get lost in minutiae. I have not just "made pve MCH with the following changes" no. I have introduced a cycle of tools with charges that have to be used in order but can still be delayed or used to fit different situations. They can also be augmented with reassemble. Perhaps the reassemble effects could need some reworks, and tbh they're mostly examples of what I'd find flavorful. I like the idea that if my trash mob in dungeons is fresh out the oven and my bioblaster is coming up, I can reassemble it, help the tank with an AoE slow, and then use FT to capitalize on it. I like that when the pack of mobs is dying I can delay my tools a little and use Rea chainsaw to mow them down. I like that my tools like in pvp are dedicated for specific tasks, which is after all, the whole idea behind something called "tools". In pve, they are all the same flavor and do the same thing.

The fact still remains that you have a limited amount of reassembles to use and you need to make choices into what you want to burn them. Alternatively you can even remove the cycle completely if you want full choice but that would also prove problematic since people would probably try to cram everything into the burst window and be left with literally nothing left to do in terms of multitool for the remaining 50s until next refresh. The cycle is here to keep some constraints and force a certain flow, but its charges also removes it to become incredibly rigid.

Now, thinking about it more, since there is 2 AoE and 2 ST tools in my thing, and 3 reassemble per 120s, you'd rea almost every tool you want to use in both scenari. Perhaps i'd rework them to have Rea adjust some of them for AoE and some for ST. Perhaps Rea Drill becomes a Piercing Drill that gets through the first target and hits everything behind with decreasing damage. Perhaps Rea Anchor makes it AoE. Perhaps basic Bio blaster is worth it even in ST because the dot is short but very strong. Perhaps chainsaw is also worth it in ST because it's not too low potency and it makes the cycle go on. There is plenty of ideas to be worked around that concept, that's the whole core of pvp MCH tools.

Sniper Rifle, you can remove if you want. It's just there because I honestly don't know what to do with it.

I'm just a little frustrated that the only thing you're telling me is that "it's just pve with some changes". I literally made it on purpose to not throw away and discard the whole pve kit and now you complain that I'm not going wild enough?

[Mikey_R]

I'm just a little frustrated that the only thing you're telling me is that "it's just pve with some changes". I literally made it on purpose to not throw away and discard the whole pve kit and now you complain that I'm not going wild enough?

I gave you free reign to take any PvP kit and adapt it into a PvE environment. I placed no constraints on how you done that, I never said you had use the current PvE rotation, you could do whatever you wanted, as long as the spirit of the PvP rotation is still there.

I also never complained that you basically made the PvE kit, I made an observation. The fact you used the PvE rotation as a base means it isn't as bad as you first implied. This whole thing was on the premise that, with slight adjustments, PvP kits would work well in PvE. The fact you started with the PvE rotation goes against the whole idea of the exercise.

You say you want the tools to provide different effects, which is fine, but also know that the ones with the highest damage will be placed into burst windows, so you already have a restriction there. Knowing that you can go through 2 cycles in 2 minutes means you will want to do that, which further restricts when you can use specific tools as you don't want to overcap the charges, otherwise you delay your burst. This assumes the tools are stronger than your basic combo, if they aren't, it becomes even worse.

Ultimately, you aren't going to achieve the same feeling you get in PvP when compared to PvE. The PvP kits are suited for PvP only, trying to fit them into PvE encounters just doesn't work.

[ty_taurus]

I think it goes without saying that PVP kits do not literally translate to PVE very well. We shouldn’t need to establish that because I would imagine those of us familiar with the game can see that without needing an explanation.

What is being said about PVP is that there is room to take inspiration from the PVP kits when designing adjustments for PVE. That doesn’t mean ripping things directly from PVP as they are and zealously refusing to tweak them in any way.

[Valence]

I gave you free reign to take any PvP kit and adapt it into a PvE environment. I placed no constraints on how you done that, I never said you had use the current PvE rotation, you could do whatever you wanted, as long as the spirit of the PvP rotation is still there.

I also never complained that you basically made the PvE kit, I made an observation. The fact you used the PvE rotation as a base means it isn't as bad as you first implied. This whole thing was on the premise that, with slight adjustments, PvP kits would work well in PvE. The fact you started with the PvE rotation goes against the whole idea of the exercise.

You say you want the tools to provide different effects, which is fine, but also know that the ones with the highest damage will be placed into burst windows, so you already have a restriction there. Knowing that you can go through 2 cycles in 2 minutes means you will want to do that, which further restricts when you can use specific tools as you don't want to overcap the charges, otherwise you delay your burst. This assumes the tools are stronger than your basic combo, if they aren't, it becomes even worse.

Ultimately, you aren't going to achieve the same feeling you get in PvP when compared to PvE. The PvP kits are suited for PvP only, trying to fit them into PvE encounters just doesn't work.

Of course there is restrictions? What is a job toolkit if no restrictions?

I'm starting to see that you completely missed the point of everything and your whole agenda was to demonstrate that pvp kits don't directly translate into pve. Well, enjoy the strawman captain obvious, because nobody ever postulated that.

Edit: for real, just respond to ty_taurus that already answered perfectly what was the actual premise about.

[Mikey_R]

Edit: for real, just respond to ty_taurus that already answered perfectly what was the actual premise about.

I planned to as soon as I read it.

I think it goes without saying that PVP kits do not literally translate to PVE very well. We shouldn’t need to establish that because I would imagine those of us familiar with the game can see that without needing an explanation.

What is being said about PVP is that there is room to take inspiration from the PVP kits when designing adjustments for PVE. That doesn’t mean ripping things directly from PVP as they are and zealously refusing to tweak them in any way.

The PvP kits themselves are directly inspired by the PvE kits. So, logically, if you were to take the PvP kits and take inspiration from them to make a PvE kit, logically speaking, you would end up with something that looks similar to the current PvE kits.

The claim then, that the PvP kits have things that the PvE kits could take inspiration from should then be tested. This is why, you start at the PvP kit, take the things out that only apply to PvP, replace with some PvE centred things and make a new kit. Now, if what you come up with is something similar to the PvE kit, then the PvP kit really isn't that inspiring is it?

So aagin, the question is, what is so inspiring about the PvP kits that the PvE kits could learn from?

What PVP does well is job identity. Of course PVP abilities wont translate into PVE, but they should be taking note how they’re able to bring a different feeling in every job

Define Job identity. This one I am curious about. I'm pretty sure people use this term to mean different things, so what does it mean to you and anyone else who wants to answer.

[MagiusNecros]

Define Job identity.

Every job plays the same in PVE. Every job plays differently in PVP down to playstyle, kit and unique effects that only that job class brings. Which goes beyond a raid buff or 2 minute burst or a 5 action Fell Cleave window.

All there is to it. Only PVE job with identity is Blue Mage. And eventually Beastmaster.