The problem with Tripling Down on Shadowbringers Job Design

[HyperiusUltima]

I am still looking to Dawntrail with the story in mind, but the one thing that I dislike? Job Design.

I'm talking about the abilities and attacks that make the job. While it's impossible to even talk about potencies, I'm more looking more at just what things jobs are getting in Dawntrail and where they've taken their philosophy since they screwed themselves in Endwalker by tripling down. While I'm sure we'll still have the 2m Meta and all that, we're adding Viper and Pictomancer into the equation which complicate their balancing even further. There's a bit of history to be had here, and it'll take a while to read.

Since Shadowbringers, we reset everything from Stormblood(which, honestly, was the height of raiding due to how well designed jobs were at the time and their application aside from WHM). The issue at hand is that while we did reset things to be less complicated, what happened was the butchering of DRK's identity, jobs becoming more Warrior-esque for Tanks, Healers nearly playing identical to WHM(hence where people started complaining about 1111111 spam in Endwalker), while Ranged DPS were becoming less and less needed due to the 1% Stat Buff.

Since then, we stepped into the realm of 2 Minute Meta where everyone's buffs/debuffs are all burst at 2m for raid design, as well as the FURTHER butchering of DRK and the uprising of WAR to its current state. Oh, did I forget to mention content being able to be cleared WITHOUT A HEALER? Yeah - that. That should never happen in a game that has a focus on having a Trinity system. PERIOD. The biggest offenders? PLD and WAR. While PLD wasn't AS crazy, it could still outlast an entire boss fight if managed carefully. WAR on the other hand was a complete and utter monster. One of the things that was noticed was the dichotomy that PLD/WAR and DRK/GNB had been pushed into - something that Healers are familiar with in regards to Pure/Shield healing, except it's instead Party Utility/Damage.

When Abyssos came out, PLD was pushed out of raiding the tier due to the nature of their kit: Damage was low, but party utility was high. Made sense right? Wrong. Raid Design obviously was messed up this tier, and it took people longer to clear with PLD compared to having a DRK/GNB combo. WAR on the other hand was on the low end as well, but still had ridiculous self-healing tools to work with for tense situations. Then came P8S which broke the camel's back... Since Boss HP was a major issue for people, the community started talking about issues about a certain Stat that was focused on since Stormblood: Critical Hit.

For those who don't know, Critical Hit scales higher than Direct Hit the higher that number is depending on tiering(not going to go into numerics here), which was their band-aid. Everyone and their mother wanted Critical Hit because it scaled the hardest, while some balanced some of their stats for Direct Hit as a cushion in case you didn't Crit. People complained about Crit Variance because in P8S, the boss's HP was too high for normal non-crits to actually beat the DPS check of Phase 1. You NEEDED Critical Hits. Until they adjusted it, things were pretty bad out the gate. PLD/WAR were essentially shafted for DRK/GNB while you could take a handful of DPS and some good Healers to clear.

Then...came 6.3. Because PLD could not effectively burst well out the gate for the Buff Phase during Phase 2, it essentially had the weakest burst and well...when we're talking about Boss HP? effectively was reworked. Goring Blade DoT was gone, and instead they made Goring Blade similar to Blasting Zone - hit it and forget it until it comes back up. This kind of ruined people's identity of PLD while others welcomed it, so it was a mixed bag in regards to the rework - HOWEVER. WAR got more bells and whistles in the next raid balance patch.

WAR got more damage, a HoT added to Shake It Off, and became essentially top tier for the remainder of Anabaseios. So, when was the last mid-Expansion major job change? Oh right - 6.3 - but that was for *raid design purposes*, wasn't it? Well, why did WAR get this? Because of a vocal minority who want their job to be the best. Historically, since Heavensward, WAR has never been NOT chosen as the top 2 jobs to take - only this expansion that happened. This controversy is the same as when WAR had Shake It Off changed from an Esuna in Stormblood to a raid-wide Shield.

When we go into Dawntrail, I'm seeing more of the same, except with small things to placate the extremely annoyed Healer Playerbase(seeing more than one action be used for healing, while getting MORE healing tools, supposedly) and other things to further the design on DPS.

And while I haven't said anything on DPS, it's because DPS is the most played job. Why? Because DPS' kits are diverse in usage and are a unique playstyle. In Dawntrail? All the Tanks look/feel the same in regards to each other. All the Healers look/feel the same in regards to each other other than new jingling keys to distract them from the real problem. Why is that since Shadowbringers?

It's because the Development Team is scared of job complexity. While accessibility in itself is a great idea, you can't hyperfocus on it to make your game overly simple in execution. Your jobs do not become interesting just because they can make a song and dance fun in a particular fight in Raids - doing that on a repeated basis eventually makes the fight lose its flavor and makes people turn back to how the job feels.

The only way they can really make Tanks and Healers feel better is by having them bring unique things to the table that aren't game-breaking(staring at you WAR...) and can provide unique strategies on a job composition basis instead of just "Every Tank and Healer is the Same - do X and Y." And I know that is a pipe dream, but they need to do something to help excite the playerbase, and the Job Action Reveal ain't it chief.


TLDR; Shadowbringers Job Design was bad for Tanks/Healers. Endwalker Job Design was bad for everyone. Dawntrail Job Design? It's currently not looking good for everyone. AGAIN. Do something about it to make Tank/Healer fun again without breaking the game with one job.

[Jeeqbit]

Stormblood(which, honestly, was the height of raiding due to how well designed jobs were at the time and their application aside from WHM)

I felt that Stormblood removed most of the jank and useless actions and ideas, but there was still a bit which Shadowbringers cleaned up tbh.

what happened was the butchering of DRK's identity

Well I would say the focus was changed from the Abyssal Drain heals over to absorbing things with TBN. I can understand why they moved away from Dark Arts just because it was meme'd so much by the community. To be honest, I always liked Dark Passenger and wished it had more involvement so getting Flood of Shadow to use regularly felt really good.

jobs becoming more Warrior-esque for Tanks

Well 50% of people using tank stance 100% of the time, and the other 50% using DPS stance 100% of the time, combined with how it was hard to explain enmity combos as a concept, made it understandable to me.

Healers nearly playing identical to WHM(hence where people started complaining about 1111111 spam in Endwalker)

Arguably, WHM had multiple DoTs in Stormblood though, although I'm not quite so sure they had intended them all to be used like that which is why they made an upgrade system.

Since then, we stepped into the realm of 2 Minute Meta where everyone's buffs/debuffs are all burst at 2m for raid design

It's sort of logical because raid groups were already aligning them and giving themselves an advantage over those who did not, then complaining that raids were designed for those who did not align them. Their solution? Force them to be aligned so the raids can have an equally tight DPS check for all players. Personally I'd rather they just remove raid-wide damage buffs so that jobs don't have to be designed around this boring 2-minute constraint, or make it so only 1 role type has a damage buff and if you have multiple of them you lose damage.

the FURTHER butchering of DRK

Doesn't feel that different in EW, other than the 60 second constraints.

the uprising of WAR to its current state.

It kinda made sense to increase tank survival with the incoming damage in EW leveling dungeons and to balance the other tanks with WAR and DRK, but it really went overboard to where healers are flat out not needed at all compared to HW and SB. Hopefully this will be fixed.

While PLD wasn't AS crazy, it could still outlast an entire boss fight if managed carefully.

Well honestly PLD has always been one of the first to be able to solo stuff due to Clemency, but obviously that required sacrificing damage and now they don't even need to.

Goring Blade DoT was gone, and instead they made Goring Blade similar to Blasting Zone - hit it and forget it until it comes back up. This kind of ruined people's identity of PLD while others welcomed it

Functionally, PLD is GNB now but with less weaving, like how WAR is DRK with less weaving. But I think its "lore" identity as a holy knight with a shield/sword/desire to protect remains tbh.

When we go into Dawntrail, I'm seeing more of the same

I think what we are seeing is a solution to replace DoTs or other keep-up buffs by using symbols or Dragon Kick > Bootshine type mechanics to make multiple combos relevant. Hopefully that will allow PLD to feel like more than just Royal Authority spam for example. It looks like Atonement will become like a second combo and a further double down on the Requiescat/Inner Release-enabled attacks.

Why is that since Shadowbringers?

It's because the Development Team is scared of job complexity.

I think it is because of balance and accessibility both.

[ty_taurus]

I felt that Stormblood removed most of the jank and useless actions and ideas, but there was still a bit which Shadowbringers cleaned up tbh.

Me, a Stormblood Scholar player:

"Hey, I see you're taking my trash out for me. That's great, thank you. But also, why did rip my stove out, and where are you taking it, my TV, my mattress, and my dog?"

[Mikey_R]

It's because the Development Team is scared of job complexity.

Can you define job complexity? What would make a job complex? Does complexity not disappear once you have a certain level of mastery in that job?

[iVolke]

What would make a job complex?

Having more than 2 buttons to press

[Raikai]

Can you define job complexity? What would make a job complex? Does complexity not disappear once you have a certain level of mastery in that job?

Obviously there's a 'puzzle' aspect about jobs. You need to figure out mechanics, which are superficially complex even nowadays. Most jobs seems unintuitive because the game does a really bad job with its tooltips, but with a few days of practice one might get it. Beyond that is what we don't have, which is engagement as job complexity.

Mechanics who won't allow us to run on 'auto-piilot' like non-rotational procs that would feel like 'bonus' if properly used, or finding good moments to use your resources based on certain conditions - which we defnitely don't have with the 2min meta nor the encounter design gives us many of those opportunities (eg. priority adds that need down ASAP), dot management with dots that interact with other parts of the kit, proper pet mechanics of micro-managing, niche actions that would assign sub-roles to some people (eg. someone that isn't a tank who can kite an add from point a to point b).

Anyway, job complexity isn't really a thing on its own. The encounter also need to accomodate it, and currently XIV's encounter design is extremely cemented to have that. I'm hopeful that since they claimed they'll be making encounters more unique, in DT, that will pave the way for a more interesting job design in 8.0, which based on what they said, I suspect it's the plan.

Of course, I'm not holding my breath for anything - I only believe when I see it.

[AmiableApkallu]

Does complexity not disappear once you have a certain level of mastery in that job?

It does not. Complexity is an intrinsic quality of the design. Your level mastery does not change that.

That's like saying calculus ceases to be complex once you have a certain level of mastery in it. Calculus is intrinsically more complex than basic, elementary school arithmetic. "Mastering" calculus does not change that.

[Mikey_R]

It does not. Complexity is an intrinsic quality of the design. Your level mastery does not change that.

That's like saying calculus ceases to be complex once you have a certain level of mastery in it. Calculus is intrinsically more complex than basic, elementary school arithmetic. "Mastering" calculus does not change that.

What defines how complex something is though? What you consider complex, I might not and vice versa. So, is complexity something subjective or it is something we can objectively look at and if you can look at it objectively, what parameters are we using to define the level of complexity involved.

Whilst, yes, calculus is more complex than basic maths, we can both also agree that differentiating X^2 is vastly less complex than integrating ln(Sin[x^2]/Tan[Cos{X}]) or what other made up nonsense you can come up with that will be difficult to do. SO, where is the complexity line drawn?

[Zolvolt]

What defines how complex something is though? What you consider complex, I might not and vice versa. So, is complexity something subjective or it is something we can objectively look at and if you can look at it objectively, what parameters are we using to define the level of complexity involved.

Whilst, yes, calculus is more complex than basic maths, we can both also agree that differentiating X^2 is vastly less complex than integrating ln(Sin[x^2]/Tan[Cos{X}]) or what other made up nonsense you can come up with that will be difficult to do. SO, where is the complexity line drawn?

Complexity can be boiled down to how many things you need to juggle either simultaneously or back-to-back in most cases and in some cases having to play wildly different on a boss-by-boss basis. In FFXIV that ends up boiling down to snapshotting your dots and managing your job gauge. Micro optimizations add a hint to that, but they are generally nothing more than "hit abilities in this order instead" or "hold your cd and use it right before it comes off cd to get 2 uses back-to-back". The odd one will be like "you actually do more dps if you waste this amount of your gauge at this point" This game doesn't have complex systems either that require you to use different abilities or different cooldowns or play your job in a completely different way depending on the boss. World of warcraft is a good example of having that level of complexity in their job design with their current talent tree system, set bonuses, and trinkets. But it's also why that game's class balance is always so poor. There are always classes/specs that are shunned by the community because of this problem.