The problem with Tripling Down on Shadowbringers Job Design

[Mikey_R]

Complexity is easy to explain by comparing classes.

To an extent, I can agree with that sentiment. However, it also doesn't address the question. I can compare 2 jobs and come to a conclusion that one is more complex than the other. Fine, what if someone else comes along and says, I don't agree. Who is right?

Therein lies the issue. That grey area in the middle that noone really knows what it means. This is why it is important to define such terms and, if they cannot be defined, then a better explanation should be added. I think Job A needs more complexity and in my opinion, they could do that by doing something along the lines of X. That way at least people have an understanding of what what someone means via an explanation. As you have done, by comparing 2 Jobs, you compare the before and after for the job and analyse it to see what potentially comes of it.

Definitely a difficult thing to pin down.

I'm still searching for other ways of describing what I feel SMN is lacking, though I probably don't think it lacks as much as others do. I'm currently starting from a concept of input depth -- the sequence of memorization required to process the rotation. I do think they have some interesting input variance at least at 90. The fast-paced A,b,A,b,A,b,A,b for Titan compared to A,A,A,A, long B for Garuda and long A, long A, B, B for Ifrit. Mostly I think it needs help in other areas because A,A,A,A,A for Astral Impulse and Fountain of Fire if given an oGCD will just make it feel like the Titan input sequence.

I think Summoner is missing an overarching mechanic (After typing everything I am adding this in. I want to say it is missing some sort of build up. That ramp up to the burst). Something that takes summoning the primals to do and helps to break up the monotony of pressing the same button. One thing I notice is that Demi Summons do not use the Gemshine button and the Lego summons do not use Enkindle. Starting with the Lego Summons, there is no reason you couldn't have it activate and on use, it summons Shiva/Levi/Ramuh for an attack. Could be an oGCD, could be a GCD, let's have fun with it. We can then say, by using Enkindle here, you build up another resource, call it Zantetsuken gauge. Then, once you have your Demis out, gemshine turns into Zantetsuken and you effectively have a combo, on the oGCD, that is weaved between the Demi attacks.

What people think of that idea, who knows. Just spit balling ideas.

[HappyHubris]

To an extent, I can agree with that sentiment. However, it also doesn't address the question. I can compare 2 jobs and come to a conclusion that one is more complex than the other. Fine, what if someone else comes along and says, I don't agree. Who is right?

Therein lies the issue. That grey area in the middle that noone really knows what it means. This is why it is important to define such terms and, if they cannot be defined, then a better explanation should be added. I think Job A needs more complexity and in my opinion, they could do that by doing something along the lines of X. That way at least people have an understanding of what what someone means via an explanation. As you have done, by comparing 2 Jobs, you compare the before and after for the job and analyse it to see what potentially comes of it.

Definitely a difficult thing to pin down.

It's not, though. There are different types of complexity (e.g., proc based vs. memorized sequence based jobs), but almost everyone can agree that PLD is more complex than WAR or BLM is more complex than SMN - and we can ignore the wrong people.

You can reuse your text for anything in the world. "You and I agree that cows and cats are different species, but what if someone disagrees with us that they are different? It's tough to pin down!" You're just demanding busywork for the obvious. I can play SMN for 20 minutes and confirm that it's braindead and lacking complexity without pitching an entire class redesign to you.