The problem with Tripling Down on Shadowbringers Job Design

[Supersnow845]

The stupid thing is that PIC seems to be a genuinely interesting job that’s showing a lot of creativity even if you can draw parallels to other jobs

Being able to invert the 1-2-3 at will with gauge. Having the 3 different motifs that each have their own unique upsides and downsides. The fact that the party buff has a built in SPS buff meaning it isn’t just about stuffing in your highest potency attacks but rather the attacks that most benefit from a SPS reduction (I can’t think of another job that actively encourages the use of part of your filler rotation in its burst window as reversed aetherhue benefits most from the SPS buff

It’s like they took the best notes of NIN DNC and BLM and made a class that doesn’t feel like any of them but you can tell is inspired by them

(Note this is all speculation around information we have gleaned from the live letter)

[VentVanitas]

Picto looks like a caster that actually seems to be designed with modern encounter design in mind without leaning too far into braindead SMN levels. while it has a pretty straightforward kit, its weird pseudo-BLM stance has interesting implications for how it may potentially interact with fights. it's pretty much what I wanted Black/White Shift to be if it ever got carried over from PvP into PvE.

[MagiusNecros]

Picto looks like a caster that actually seems to be designed with modern encounter design in mind without leaning too far into braindead SMN levels. while it has a pretty straightforward kit, its weird pseudo-BLM stance has interesting implications for how it may potentially interact with fights. it's pretty much what I wanted Black/White Shift to be if it ever got carried over from PvP into PvE.

Only at level cap. Have a feeling they will repeat same mistakes and low level content will be terrible to play. Lvl 50 Reaper and Lvl 70+ Reaper play so differently from each other. Level 30ish content will be even worse.

Pictomancer which I plan to make my main class looks like the big winner in classes to play in Dawntrail with a rewarding builder spender component in it's casting rotation and very interesting ways to approach encounters with it's sketch rotation.

The ideas on what to do with Rainbow Road casts or Element Swap is a fun thing to think about or how to weave casting in with Sketch attacks will be fun to think about.

Viper on the other hand will feel like high APM but is just going to combo cycle for maintaining self buffs and becoming Reaper 2.0 during Awaken which is a 1 to 1 copy of Enshroud. The worry here is the same with low level Reaper in that it doesn't really come together until level cap.

And sadly from experience they design everything around level cap instead of level progression.

[Supersnow845]

Only at level cap. Have a feeling they will repeat same mistakes and low level content will be terrible to play. Lvl 50 Reaper and Lvl 70+ Reaper play so differently from each other. Level 30ish content will be even worse.

Pictomancer which I plan to make my main class looks like the big winner in classes to play in Dawntrail with a rewarding builder spender component in it's casting rotation and very interesting ways to approach encounters with it's sketch rotation.

The ideas on what to do with Rainbow Road casts or Element Swap is a fun thing to think about or how to weave casting in with Sketch attacks will be fun to think about.

Viper on the other hand will feel like high APM but is just going to combo cycle for maintaining self buffs and becoming Reaper 2.0 during Awaken which is a 1 to 1 copy of Enshroud. The worry here is the same with low level Reaper in that it doesn't really come together until level cap.

And sadly from experience they design everything around level cap instead of level progression.

The skill level from each of the important skills is as follows

Level 10; self shield
Level 20; dash
Level 25; full AOE 1-2-3
Level 30; creature motif with Pom wings and moogle beam
Level 50; full weapon motif
Level 60; inverted artherhue combo
Level 70; landscape canvas
Level 80; white holy
Level 90; black comet
Level 92; rainbow road
Level 100; star prism

I couldn’t see the unknown skill, the AOE utility, the 1-2-3 or the second half of creature motif

[MagiusNecros]

The skill level from each of the important skills is as follows

Level 10; self shield
Level 20; dash
Level 25; full AOE 1-2-3
Level 30; creature motif with Pom wings and moogle beam
Level 50; full weapon motif
Level 60; inverted artherhue combo
Level 70; landscape canvas
Level 80; white holy
Level 90; black comet
Level 92; rainbow road
Level 100; star prism

I couldn’t see the unknown skill, the AOE utility, the 1-2-3 or the second half of creature motif

Here. This gives a good rundown until I assume when we get a info blowout in June or maybe even May 31st. Media tour ends on May 30th.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme..._simple_maybe/

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ancer_summary/

That's good info on the level requirements on the skills. I gotta rewatch the LL footage again.

[Mikey_R]

Since the only response I've had to my question on what actually would make a job complex is a sarcastic response, I think it is safe to say noone really knows what complexity is. The closest response I have got was in another topic, where the question I asked was slightly different. That question was on job difficulty and the only response I got was having multiple DoTs with different timings. Whilst this might seem 'difficult' at first, you will soon get used to when you refresh your DoTs based on instinct and also where you are in your rotation.

Which brings home the point. You cannot make something complex that stays complex once you master it. You can make a system where the resources you have form a web in how they interact, but there will still be one way that it seems to flow the best. Once you have this, after some practice, the underlying web becomes a non issue and intuition takes over. The complexity has now seemingly been taken out of the job.

This is why I ask, what actually counts as complexity, what makes a job complex and most importantly, why would your 'complexity' stay complex even after mastery?

[Supersnow845]

Since the only response I've had to my question on what actually would make a job complex is a sarcastic response, I think it is safe to say noone really knows what complexity is. The closest response I have got was in another topic, where the question I asked was slightly different. That question was on job difficulty and the only response I got was having multiple DoTs with different timings. Whilst this might seem 'difficult' at first, you will soon get used to when you refresh your DoTs based on instinct and also where you are in your rotation.

Which brings home the point. You cannot make something complex that stays complex once you master it. You can make a system where the resources you have form a web in how they interact, but there will still be one way that it seems to flow the best. Once you have this, after some practice, the underlying web becomes a non issue and intuition takes over. The complexity has now seemingly been taken out of the job.

This is why I ask, what actually counts as complexity, what makes a job complex and most importantly, why would your 'complexity' stay complex even after mastery?

You can’t really take the argument “once you get good everything is easy” because it’s a circular argument you can apply to the reverse as well

“What’s the point in complex encounters in which once you master them instinct takes over”

The sarcastic example of old SCH (I’m assuming that’s what you meant with multiple DOT’s on different timers) is more complex because there is more fail states and more moving parts, this can be applied to all content, not just savage

As to your wider question complexity is borne of moving parts, punishing fail states and forced adaptation to the design of the encounter

[Mikey_R]

You can’t really take the argument “once you get good everything is easy” because it’s a circular argument you can apply to the reverse as well

It isn't circular reasoning though as there is justification for me saying it. You start bad with no knowledge, you gain knowledge and practice, you get better at it and things become easier. So, you get better, things become easier. This can be applied to basically every aspect of live so it shouldn't be controversial.

“What’s the point in complex encounters in which once you master them instinct takes over”

If this was meant to be the reverse of what I said, then it failed. The reverse of what I said would be the worse you are, the harder things will be. Which, again, shouldn't be a controversial statement.

The mistake here is then that you have said fight complexity is the reverse of job complexity, which it isn't. How a fight plays out has nothing to do with job actions. They are however linked by how they interact with each other. However, it isn't a direct correlation.

The sarcastic example of old SCH (I’m assuming that’s what you meant with multiple DOT’s on different timers) is more complex because there is more fail states and more moving parts, this can be applied to all content, not just savage

As to your wider question complexity is borne of moving parts, punishing fail states and forced adaptation to the design of the encounter

I will provide a link to the exact post I was talking about, however, just like my question in this topic, it was just a general question not directed at any job in particular, but as a concept as a whole. There was no sarcasm against Scholar as I never named a job directly, I never even hinted at a job directly, so you just inserted your own opinion on that matter.

As for the rest, 'moving parts', I already addressed, once you know how the parts move, the complexity fades. 'Punishing fail states', is complexity now defined as how many times you can fail to do your job, or do something out of order? Is me failing to do 123 occasionally part of the 'complexity' because that is a fail state? How about Monk using Forbidden Chakra at max Chakra and potentially wasting chakra, does the fact Brotherhood can provide a ton of Chakra, leading to overcap and thereby wasting the resource for something out of your control count as complexity? You have still failed to not overcap your resources after all. Whilst these are ridiculous examples, they do highlight that making broad generalisations doesn't help the conversation.

Now, we get into the interesting part. 'Forced adaption to the design of the encounter'. Yes. This I do agree with. Having to change your rotation to output the most damage in an encounter should be something to consider. Whether it is forcing melee out of melee range, having a phase change during 'burst' so you potentially waste it etc. Unfortunately, a lot of people that say they want more complexity from jobs, dismiss the encounter in the equation. It is the encounter and how the jobs interact with that encounter, that makes your job fun, not just the jobs themselves.

[Supersnow845]

snip

You yourself said you were offered a sarcastic answer. I assumed you were discussing SCH because it was a multiple dot job, I didn’t provide input on that you are the one who said you were provided a sarcastic answer

And when I said reverse I didn’t mean reverse statement I meant the reverse argument. The idea that complexity exists on a balance between all in the job and all in the encounter. You are arguing that complexity comes from the encounter as the job becomes instinct, I said your own logic of instinct taking over can be applied to the reverse argument that instinct can take over on the encounter once you have done it as well. Therefore the statement “once you get good things become easier” becomes a totally moot statement because it can be used to argue both sides of a diametrically opposed argument

Difficulty has to come from both sides or you wind up on the healer situation. If every job pressed 11111111111 then you could make most savages as hard mechanically as TOP because there is no job difficulty. Encounters should facilitate differences in job complexity to lead to differing results. The best example of this is T7 (if anyone even remembers T8 at this point). The fight isn’t excessively mechanically challenging but it does challenge your kit and force you to solve it different ways which plays into what each job offered at the time. Your rotation wasn’t static and played into each other

There is also the question of casual content that must be included in the discussion as pushing encounter difficulty above all else makes casual content beige as hell for any job