The problem with Tripling Down on Shadowbringers Job Design

[Aravell]

If, after all of that which quite clearly shows they play differently with different considerations, you still want to make the claim they are the same. I genuinely do not know what to say.

Like I said, if you're going to nitpick to that point, obviously you're going to find a bunch of differences. But in a gameplay flow perspective, those 2 jobs feel almost identical to me, the only glaring difference would be the Mudra system.

I'll just agree to disagree, I'm not convincing you and you're not convincing me.

But that is the reality we live in: games like FFXIV are successful because their business models care more about the *appearance* of depth than actual depth, so long as the casuals stay fed. Because they, and the in-store glams and level skips, are where the money is.

The problem with this statement is that who can definitively prove that HW and SB design were harmful to the casuals? They were still clearing content back then and as far as I remember, they weren't complaining about X or Y job being too hard.

Also, as for where the money is, sure, some casuals buy store stuff, but by nature of being a casual, they're very likely not logged in to the game very much. It's usually the hardcore players that make the game feel alive, the ones who sub for months on end to clear raids, the big fishers, the achievement hunters. They're the ones doing content and keeping the game alive, not the people who do the MSQ and then quit until next patch.

I don't think catering completely to casuals can keep your game healthy, a balance does need to be reached.

[HappyHubris]

I think you're mostly right with all of this with one big caveat. Other MMOs do have more interactivity and reaction in their healer and tank designs with the same casual appeal. So, it seems like there's room to grow even if it means they should be shooting for a slightly larger amount of complexity rather than a whole lot more complexity. Though, I'm loathed to use the word complexity since I don't think it accurately describes what even the players who ask for it want. It's too imprecise a word to be actionable, I think.

I'm still searching for other ways of describing what I feel SMN is lacking, though I probably don't think it lacks as much as others do. I'm currently starting from a concept of input depth -- the sequence of memorization required to process the rotation. I do think they have some interesting input variance at least at 90. The fast-paced A,b,A,b,A,b,A,b for Titan compared to A,A,A,A, long B for Garuda and long A, long A, B, B for Ifrit. Mostly I think it needs help in other areas because A,A,A,A,A for Astral Impulse and Fountain of Fire if given an oGCD will just make it feel like the Titan input sequence.

Oh yeah totally agreed. But FFXIV gets enough right where there is no economic reason to make combat more interesting.

It's the same reason why the MSQ is mostly movies strung together with the occasional dungeon or trial, instead of using the questing mechanics of other modern MMOs. Or why inventory and commerce are so janky. It turns out if an MMO looks good and has plentiful content, you can get away with having a LOT of unpolished facets.

[HappyHubris]

To an extent, I can agree with that sentiment. However, it also doesn't address the question. I can compare 2 jobs and come to a conclusion that one is more complex than the other. Fine, what if someone else comes along and says, I don't agree. Who is right?

Therein lies the issue. That grey area in the middle that noone really knows what it means. This is why it is important to define such terms and, if they cannot be defined, then a better explanation should be added. I think Job A needs more complexity and in my opinion, they could do that by doing something along the lines of X. That way at least people have an understanding of what what someone means via an explanation. As you have done, by comparing 2 Jobs, you compare the before and after for the job and analyse it to see what potentially comes of it.

Definitely a difficult thing to pin down.

It's not, though. There are different types of complexity (e.g., proc based vs. memorized sequence based jobs), but almost everyone can agree that PLD is more complex than WAR or BLM is more complex than SMN - and we can ignore the wrong people.

You can reuse your text for anything in the world. "You and I agree that cows and cats are different species, but what if someone disagrees with us that they are different? It's tough to pin down!" You're just demanding busywork for the obvious. I can play SMN for 20 minutes and confirm that it's braindead and lacking complexity without pitching an entire class redesign to you.

[HappyHubris]

I assure you that having more DPS buttons to press/responsabilities/job identity per healer in your healing kit will not affect Joe and Jane spamming the same healing GCD every 0.1% of health lost to clear content, because only high-end content requires DPS from healers which they probably wont' be doing since it requires time to learn, optimize and clear the fights

I mean, that's every single job, though. I've met (old) SMNs and BRDs who ignore DoTs; they play a simpler version of the game. I can still enjoy using the full toolkit to try and contribute as much as possible.

I'm sure that we would be shocked at the percentage of people who disregard their 1-2-3 chains to spam one key.

[HappyHubris]

The problem with this statement is that who can definitively prove that HW and SB design were harmful to the casuals? They were still clearing content back then and as far as I remember, they weren't complaining about X or Y job being too hard.

Even if there was no impact on casual retention, it's easier to DEVELOP a game where the classes are homogenized and there is a large buffer between success and failure.

Also, as for where the money is, sure, some casuals buy store stuff, but by nature of being a casual, they're very likely not logged in to the game very much. It's usually the hardcore players that make the game feel alive, the ones who sub for months on end to clear raids, the big fishers, the achievement hunters. They're the ones doing content and keeping the game alive, not the people who do the MSQ and then quit until next patch.

I don't think catering completely to casuals can keep your game healthy, a balance does need to be reached.

The thing is that MMOs have multiple axis for "casual" and "hardcore:" skill level and time invested. I've met people who spend a TON of time in game - every class at 90, buy all the glamours, participate in a lot of social interaction with other users - and never touch extreme or savage content. Heck, I know a guy who crafts and clears to get his wife things to stick in their in-game housing, because she enjoys that part of the game more than combat. MMOs are social things that happen to have combat for some people, and many of those that are left happily respond to earning items even if the content you need to grind is absolutely droll.

[HappyHubris]

SCH player since ARR chiming in. I usually lurk on the forums instead of posting because I deeply know they'll never listen to our complaints, they've been tone deaf about healers feedback since Shadowbringers, and, after seeing what we're getting in Dawntrail, this trend is about to continue another 2 or 3 years.

What baffles me the most is that they keep giving us more healing tools while our kits were already bloated back in Stormblood. Thankfully, back then healers were pretty much distinct from each other, and kinda fun to play ( even if WHM was lagging behind because of their useless job gauge ). SCH had a really fun kit, you had to make decisions, you had to find weaving space with Miasma II ( with it's huge mp cost and the requirement to be in melee range ), and we actually were pet healers. Seriously, right now Eos feels like a glorified oGCD. Why did they take away from us the ability to use pet actions while we're casting ? What's the difference between Physis from Sage and Whispering Dawn now ? To add insult to injury, since they removed the ability to manually cast Embrace, Kardia feels way more flexible... What's the identity of SCH besides Energy Drain and a janky kit now ? I guess Square doesn't really know either since we went from military tactician commanding faeries to priest with angel theming...

Now, here's something else that bothers me a lot : encounter design since ShB. I won't elaborate about the 2 minutes meta, to me it was a mistake, period. But what I hate the most about high-end encouters is that everything now is a mitigation check, and the fact that it requires the whole party to participate. Seriously, remember Virus ? E4E ? Disable ? Why did they shift the mitigation aspect to DPS jobs while removing DPS abilities from Healers ? Why do I have to rely on my melee using feint, or my Warrior to simply press any of it's buttons to play optimally ? I know this is group content, so everyone should participate in every aspect, but why do they remove bit by bit this layer from the ones who are meant to keep the party alive ? Do we really need all mitigations buffed in Dawntrail ? Did Pictomancer reeeeaally needed a healing pulse tied to it's raid buff ? Like come on, the only thing Square could come up with for healers was new dps abilities locked behind a two minute cooldown ? What's the point ? Who asked for this ? There's 4 jobs that spam a single button throughout an encounter and this is what they come up with ?

I know this is a lot of questions, but I'm quite puzzled with the direction this game is going, combat-wise. I can't take another 2 years of this...

Just give up on healing; the intent is clearly demonstrated with no deviation for three expansions.

[Aravell]

The thing is that MMOs have multiple axis for "casual" and "hardcore:" skill level and time invested. I've met people who spend a TON of time in game - every class at 90, buy all the glamours, participate in a lot of social interaction with other users - and never touch extreme or savage content. Heck, I know a guy who crafts and clears to get his wife things to stick in their in-game housing, because she enjoys that part of the game more than combat. MMOs are social things that happen to have combat for some people, and many of those that are left happily respond to earning items even if the content you need to grind is absolutely droll.

None of this is contradicting anything I said. In fact, it makes the dev team look worse, because it means they're willingly alienating a portion of the playerbase to cater entirely to another portion that's already happy with the game.

Also, not every casual player is entirely happy with just socialising, flashy animations and engaging story either. There's been quite a few players who say that they're casual and never touch extreme/savage but also hate the job simplifications.

[fulminating]

almost everyone can agree that PLD is more complex than WAR or BLM is more complex than SMN - and we can ignore the wrong people.

Are you talking about pre or post rework paladin?

[Ayche]

"Would you be 'happier' had I a 'good reason'? If my motives met with your approval, would you no longer resent the outcome?"

It is super fine to alieanate customers, video games are not hospitality service. We don't ask the performer to turn down the volume at the metal concert.
Overall this is how they see FFXIV at its best.

[Zadood]

None of this is contradicting anything I said. In fact, it makes the dev team look worse, because it means they're willingly alienating a portion of the playerbase to cater entirely to another portion that's already happy with the game.

Also, not every casual player is entirely happy with just socialising, flashy animations and engaging story either. There's been quite a few players who say that they're casual and never touch extreme/savage but also hate the job simplifications.

The design philosophy of "A game for everyone" is inherently flawed, I can attest that as a former R18 doujin game developer.

While the said design philosophy is certain flawed one, but by no means is a bad one especially depending on priorities of a game developers.

If a game developer prioritize making money over players' gameplay experience, then the game design philosophy of "A game for everyone" is the best for the game devs.

If a game developer prioritize players' gameplay experience over making money, then the said game design is the worst for the game devs.

The thing is, majority of players lack strong preference when come to gameplay experience, since they only want games that is "good enough" for them have fun, and will ditch the game when the game are no longer have fun for them. After that, they will jump to the next shinies.

In Vtuber circles, we call these kind of players as "tourists".