The problem with Tripling Down on Shadowbringers Job Design

[Mikey_R]

So what exactly is your point here? Are you saying that I'm not allowed to point out blatant similarities between jobs because you can wield a bigger brush than me? I don't see your point at all.

The exact same thing I've always been saying. People are to focused on certain aspects of jobs and ignore the rest. By doing this, it makes everything seem the same, when they are infact, different.

But what is "being inspired by" exactly? How do you define this inspiration between pvp and pve kits? We both can play at this little game.

That's pure sophistry you've been doing since the beginning and you know it. You know what people mean, your strategy is just to derail everything into meaningless [B]minutiae that completely misses the bigger picture.[B]

We could tell you that two inner release type bursts feel the same, you'd still come up and tell us "akshtually, the GCD used in both don't have the same potency so they're technically very different!"

I will say, I wasn't the first person to use Inspiration in regards to the exercise, that would be the person I quoted, however, for me, inspiration in this regard it is being used to refer to looking at something, taking some ideas from that design and then adapting it to better suit something else. My whole argument was, take a PvP set and adapt it to a PvE environment. The result will likely be something fairly similar to the PvE set. Something additional to that, considering the current topic, I would most likely be able to take whatever you make and make the claim it is the same as every other job because it shares this one thing with another job.

'Inner Release bursts' feel the same because you have taken away the nuance that makes them feel different. Sorry if you don't agree.

As for the bold, it is people missing the minutiae that is the issue. Poeple have defined jobs by the fact they have a 60 second button and a 120 second button and ignore everything else that makes it unique. If anyone is being dishonest, it is the people making the broad claims.

[Aravell]

The exact same thing I've always been saying. People are to focused on certain aspects of jobs and ignore the rest. By doing this, it makes everything seem the same, when they are infact, different.

Just because some of the job is different doesn't mean I can't point out the blatant similarities between jobs. Saying you can paint with a broader or narrower brush does not change the fact that some aspects are extremely similar.

Like saying MNK and NIN has different ways to build their gauge does not change the fact that all the things I mentioned function the same between both. But if you're going to nitpick that Trick Attack is a debuff and Riddle of Fire is a buff, then I cannot help you, I'll just say that I disagree that there's as much difference as you're seeing.

[Supersnow845]

You’ve kinda just proved my point here 2 ways

“Almost all jobs have a 60 second and a 120 second”. Why? There is no reason they need to have those and there is no reason they all need to generate the same (ie just be a CD a press). You are ignoring the fact that “broad strokes” still forms the foundation of the job and a lot of what you end up pressing. Multiple jobs with personal 60’s group 120’s, copy pasted gauges and barrel stabiliser style CD’s tend to become repetitive. Can you pick nuances between them……yes. Does it really make the jobs not excessively similar…….no

The other way is the fact that you’ve still missed my point on healer design. Specifically in your example of ET vs Pepsis. You never press either of these skills. This is where your “broad strokes similar, nuance different” argument falls apart to me. A lot of the examples you draw from are niche optimisation or niche skills that rarely play into anything. Can you say “SGE breaks shields to heal SCH consumes the shield before it goes out to heal” and be 100% objectively correct……..yes. Does it make literally any difference to how the two jobs actually play……..no

Nuances aren’t as important as the core foundations of the jobs as that forms the majority of what you are doing. A better SGE SCH comparison would be kerechole/SS or embrace kardia. When you look at their broad strokes design they are similar

I pointed out that DNC doesn't fit the criteria that I set. They don't have a 60s personal damage buff, they don't have a 90s that they use on CD and they most certainly do not fill the same niche.

You're very much painting in much broader strokes than me to try and prove your point while glossing over mine.

Sorry that might have been me co-opting your point

[Mikey_R]

You’ve kinda just proved my point here 2 ways

“Almost all jobs have a 60 second and a 120 second”. Why? There is no reason they need to have those and there is no reason they all need to generate the same (ie just be a CD a press). You are ignoring the fact that “broad strokes” still forms the foundation of the job and a lot of what you end up pressing. Multiple jobs with personal 60’s group 120’s, copy pasted gauges and barrel stabiliser style CD’s tend to become repetitive. Can you pick nuances between them……yes. Does it really make the jobs not excessively similar…….no

And this broad stroke is a job design issue and not a job identity issue.

The other way is the fact that you’ve still missed my point on healer design. Specifically in your example of ET vs Pepsis. You never press either of these skills. This is where your “broad strokes similar, nuance different” argument falls apart to me. A lot of the examples you draw from are niche optimisation or niche skills that rarely play into anything. Can you say “SGE breaks shields to heal SCH consumes the shield before it goes out to heal” and be 100% objectively correct……..yes. Does it make literally any difference to how the two jobs actually play……..no

That's more down to encounter design and how the damage comes out rather than a job identity issue. You said that they are different, it just means damage profiles from encounters do not support the 2 types of healing in order for their unique variances to matter.

[Zairava]

That's more down to encounter design and how the damage comes out rather than a job identity issue. You said that they are different, it just means damage profiles from encounters do not support the 2 types of healing in order for their unique variances to matter.

Sure but there's glaring examples of Shield healers stepping into the shoes of Pure Healing healers and vice versa.

Sacred Soil and Kerachole give a regen, Protraction is eHP and a heal for that amount. (it's worth noting that the eHP isn't a shield, it's a HP boost), Taurachole having a sizeable heal + the mit it provides. Neutral Sect on AST

I'm sure healer mains can make this argument far better than I ever can, but the glaring issue is there.

A key point here is rather than it exclusively being an encounter design issue there is absolutely a healer-wide job design issue. The fact shield healers can have such potent heals in tandem with the most potent on-demand type of damage mitigation is the reason why they are so much stronger than the Pure Healers. The issue is that both encounter design doesn't dish enough healing output for pure healers to be a necessity in groups where 2 healers are generally required, and that they are increasingly making the barrier between the two types of healers smaller, which obviously will favor shield healers more.

[Zairava]

Oh yes, Blood Weapon. Which adds a whopping two ogcd's. One for merely using it and the other for the just enough MP for another edge.

And WAR's damage buff which takes barebones brainpower to maintain. Infuriate you only use outside of burst windows if you would otherwise overcap.

What glorious difference of nuances. One ability that adds about as much flavor as a quarter teaspoon of salt on a chicken with no other seasoning or spice on it and another that barely keeps you awake.

[Dhalya]

I am very disappointed with the direction they are taking the game in terms of job design vs. fight design difficulty and engagement.

Job design should be THE ONE that is most engaging and has high skill ceiling. This way every player is engaged in gameplay even in casual content or grinding. What they are doing is dumbing down the jobs to levels where you fall asleep in dungeons, while making the savage fights harder and harder with body checks, memory games, one shots and no way of recovery.

I completely stopped doing roulettes as I can't bear the 123 simulator on all melees including tanks, or 111 simulator on healers. Sure, in a very difficult fight like TOP or P12S I still struggle to execute perfect rotation and I am engaged a lot. But that's not enough since I only do this content for 10% of my game time and the rest feels super boring.

From the live letter it seems that they are going even more into that direction, possibly making many jobs just 1112 and oGCD weaving copies of each other. The encounters in turn will have to be really exceptional to compensate...

The other MMO I played, Aion-classic, truly not a good game content wise, but the combat is very engaging.
Every class feels different with unique things it can do and what it can optimize like normal attacks timing, dispel timing, aggro/mana/cc/pet management etc.
Sure, you can just mash your buttons and clear most of PVE content, but if you want - there are so many things to improve in. I really miss that possibility here.

[rawker]

Actually, a certain casual player from a decade ago is not afraid of taking on complexities.

*Raises hand*

[Valence]

I am very disappointed with the direction they are taking the game in terms of job design vs. fight design difficulty and engagement.

Job design should be THE ONE that is most engaging and has high skill ceiling. This way every player is engaged in gameplay even in casual content or grinding. What they are doing is dumbing down the jobs to levels where you fall asleep in dungeons, while making the savage fights harder and harder with body checks, memory games, one shots and no way of recovery.

I completely stopped doing roulettes as I can't bear the 123 simulator on all melees including tanks, or 111 simulator on healers. Sure, in a very difficult fight like TOP or P12S I still struggle to execute perfect rotation and I am engaged a lot. But that's not enough since I only do this content for 10% of my game time and the rest feels super boring.

From the live letter it seems that they are going even more into that direction, possibly making many jobs just 1112 and oGCD weaving copies of each other. The encounters in turn will have to be really exceptional to compensate...

The other MMO I played, Aion-classic, truly not a good game content wise, but the combat is very engaging.
Every class feels different with unique things it can do and what it can optimize like normal attacks timing, dispel timing, aggro/mana/cc/pet management etc.
Sure, you can just mash your buttons and clear most of PVE content, but if you want - there are so many things to improve in. I really miss that possibility here.

I said it many times and ultimately it boils down to what pvp retained in EW and what pve lost in ShB: once you remove enough basic building blocks in your lego set so much that you're only left with one red brick and one blue plank, no matter how creative you think you can be, good luck reaching an actually satisfying variety in the final design output.

[kirinoodles_]

I've never agreed more. I'm a healer main with a great affection towards AST. I really liked the ability to be hybrid even if I understand it being taken away due to balancing both stances. I enjoyed playing healer in all type of content

I'm sad by the fact they all cast at 1.40s. If I were to compare ShB WHM to EW WHM, i'd say I find ShB WHM more interesting. Having to rely on lilies and dots to weave things was making the job harder but it felt satisfying having to plan how to use the free weaves you were given. If clipping Assize was not ok they could have found another way to keep each healer playstyle from blending into one another

In EW I found myself not knowing what job i will play. I feel like outside of some jobs, even in the DPS category, everything gives me the same feeling. It's "2m > build > 1m > build > rinse and repeat" and there's little, if none, buttons to press outside of the 2 and 1m windows

When they gave us more informations (although not clear) about DT AST, it scared me. First of all not having RNG. Because it's the identity of the job gameplay and lore wise. But i'm willing to give it a try, it could be very fun if the cards effects are reverted back to SB/HW. Fun possibilities and also having to pay attention to party composition. However if they aren't, I think we're hoping on the WHM-like train. You'd have no reasons to draw the Lady card set over the Lord set if all the cards in both set have the exact same effects. Drawing the Lady may be worth it if the potencies are changed and you absolutely need an oGCD heal

But considering all the defensive and healing abilities every role are getting, I don't know about that. I wanna believe they will make content do more damage but we said that at ShB to EW. When they do it's not healing checks, it's mitigation checks. Just look at The Omega Protocole. Hardest hitting raid while also being just the hardest raid in general, clearable without any healers ON-PATCH. The people who managed to do this are really good, I'm really amazed. But at the same time I think it's ridiculous that it's possible when the raid just came out. It shouldn't at all or at the very least not on-patch. How did we came to that ?


As a final word, i'd like them to consider that not every job needs to be accessible or cattered to some players. Keep one of them of each category more accessible while keeping the other one harder, so you can have a sense of progression within the same role. I'd like them to also stick to a vision because we go from one extreme to another. Give us a bit more buttons to press outside of burst windows because I'm tired of playing piano on my keyboard/controller then going to sleep for 2m until i have to play piano again. Healers got another DPS button but a 2m follow-up action is not really it. Still welcomed though