The problem with Tripling Down on Shadowbringers Job Design

[MagiusNecros]

However all this said going back to your original question what is job identity? It boils down to what does each job do that makes it unique from every other job. And in PVE it's mostly aesthetics. There is very little deviation.

In PvP however there is a LOT of deviation. Down to defensives that grant damage shields and boost defense, AoE stuns, draw-ins/knockback, HP sacrificing attacks, GNB draw changing skills in your kit based on what role you used draw on, polymorph, AoE invulns, attacks that render you invulnerable to damage, true stealth and Death Link, Counter Attacks, delayed damage, fear effects, aoe buffs, crowd control, charm, stance swapping among others. Not to mention personal Limit Breaks that gives every player their own moment of glory and satisfaction. Which all serves to give these classes the identity players are looking for.

[OgruMogru]

However all this said going back to your original question what is job identity? It boils down to what does each job do that makes it unique from every other job. And in PVE it's mostly aesthetics. There is very little deviation.

In PvP however there is a LOT of deviation. Down to defensives that grant damage shields and boost defense, AoE stuns, draw-ins/knockback, HP sacrificing attacks, GNB draw changing skills in your kit based on what role you used draw on, polymorph, AoE invulns, attacks that render you invulnerable to damage, true stealth and Death Link, Counter Attacks, delayed damage, fear effects, aoe buffs, crowd control, charm, stance swapping among others. Not to mention personal Limit Breaks that gives every player their own moment of glory and satisfaction. Which all serves to give these classes the identity players are looking for.

What's sad is we used to have elements of these variables in PvE content. All jobs used to have some form of crowd control or utility, primarily stuns and slows, and old raids did require them to solve mechanics. A lot of these abilities have been removed which means those kinds of mechanics can no longer be used until we are given the tools we need back, which is why I'm sceptical of how far the encounter only approach to DT can take us. Getting to choose which pushback to mitigate or gap to close every minute or so doesn't really cut it by comparison. Not to mention things like Goad, Manashift, hell even aggro management being flushed down the toilet. They aren't even tied to individual job identity or complexity. I wish those things had been iterated on instead of outright deleted.

[Mikey_R]

What's sad is we used to have elements of these variables in PvE content. All jobs used to have some form of crowd control or utility, primarily stuns and slows, and old raids did require them to solve mechanics. A lot of these abilities have been removed which means those kinds of mechanics can no longer be used until we are given the tools we need back,

There are still elements of crowd control around, you just have to look for it. All healers have access to Repose, which puts a single target to sleep, all casters have access to Sleep, which is an AoE repose. The problem is, as soon as you hit it, it wakes up. So it is useless. Plus, using a GCD to sleep a target is nowhere near as good as just killing it quicker. But, to go onto other things; Stuns, all tanks and melee DPS have stuns, Slows, All tanks and Melee DPS have access to slow, though it is only really used by tanks. Unless you mean Heavy (movement speed debuff as opposed to attack speed debuff), which all Phys Ranged have access to.

These things are still in the game, even silence, now renamed interrupt, is on all tanks and Phys Ranged. The problem is, nothing requires you to use them. But this is an encounter design issue and not a job issue.

As an edit, forgot to mention Phys ranged also have access to a bind.

[MagiusNecros]

What's sad is we used to have elements of these variables in PvE content. All jobs used to have some form of crowd control or utility, primarily stuns and slows, and old raids did require them to solve mechanics. A lot of these abilities have been removed which means those kinds of mechanics can no longer be used until we are given the tools we need back, which is why I'm sceptical of how far the encounter only approach to DT can take us. Getting to choose which pushback to mitigate or gap to close every minute or so doesn't really cut it by comparison. Not to mention things like Goad, Manashift, hell even aggro management being flushed down the toilet. They aren't even tied to individual job identity or complexity. I wish those things had been iterated on instead of outright deleted.

It's been eroded away for streamlining. Crowd Control and debuffs has been relegated to PvP or Blue Mage. Maybe Beastmaster in future. DoTs have also slowly been removed. Very few classes have DoTs anymore and if they do only like 1 at best.

Ironically Blue Mage has the most DoTs out of any class now. Usually 3 but can go up to 4-7 depending on spell slots.

Hydro Pull + Ram's Voice is hype just about anywhere.

And we can go waaaaaaaaaaaay back when PLD could stunlock enemies with repeated Shield Bashes until they added Stun resist(internal 1 min cooldown per level of resist) or later on with them removing Dark Dance and Dark Passenger for the Parry + Blind Dodge Tank stuff on DRK. Risky but rewarding to pull off for good MP management.

Or the sheer joy of setting up all your DoTs and spreading them with Bane and Festering to just melt mobs and bosses alike.

It'll be interesting where DT takes us or if it's Meleewalker 2.0.