The problem with Tripling Down on Shadowbringers Job Design

[MagiusNecros]

you're the one who made the initial claim that all jobs played the same, so it is technically down to you to explain how they are the same, however, let's humour you.

You asked to define job identity and jobs playing similar in PVE all leads to a lack of identity

Raid buffs

This is correct, however raid buffs do not reflect how a job class plays

The 2 minute burst is problematic, yes, however, not all jobs technically burst every 2 minutes. Paladin as an example has no 2 minute cooldowns, so their 1 minute burst is the same as their 2 minute burst, so it is technically a 1 minute job, this would also apply to the old PLD.

With a few exceptions there are classes that have 1 minute bursts. However most have 2 minute bursts that they need to line up or delay for other classes 2 minute bursts. Sentinel, Cover, Passage are all 2 minute CDs. So the statement that PLD has no 2 minute CDs at all is false.

Even jobs like Monk, Dark Knight and Ninja don't technically fully commit to the 2 minute burst as they have cooldowns which have a 90 second recast time on them, which means everything lines up every 6 minutes, though most of it is every 2 minutes.

But they still have to conform to the 2 minute meta in a coordinated raid setting

5 action fell cleave window. Ignoring it is now 3 fell cleaves per Inner Release, this isn't true either. Even the job most compared to War in that regard, DRK, has other things to consider before you get to pressing Delirium that Warrior doesn't have to consider. However, again, not every job has '3 fell cleave button'. Monk, Dragoon, Samurai, Ninja, Reaper, Black Mage (they have more to consider than just no thought Fire 4 spam), bard, Machinist.

Warrior spams Cleave, DRK spams Bloodspiller(with new Delirium in 7.0 this may change), GNB spams Gnashing and Burst Strike and is limited by No Mercy windows, Monk has Perfect Balance phase, DRG is an outlier aiming towards triple Nastrond into Stardiver, SAM is Midare Spam, NIN is Raijin spam, Reaper is Enshroud spam, BLM is Fire 4 spam, Bard cycles through Bloodletter or Pitch Perfect spam, MCH is Heat Blast Spam. So it would seem that actually multiple jobs do indeed have a Fell Cleave phase after all.

This is also forgetting the fact you have focused on very very little of the job's kit. Burst every 2 minutes (of which even the 2 minute raid buffs are different) and one button fell cleave equivalent. Okay, what about how the job builds resources in order to execute the bursts, how do jobs spend their time between bursts, do they have mini bursts at 1 minute, 30 seconds, are there things you need to plan ahead before going into burst, etc.

So do your 1-2-3 a couple times to build meter and then you burst. And using your 2 minute which is usually generating half your gauge to have a bigger burst. Most jobs have this.

Check bolded.

[Mikey_R]

Since I can't quote what's in a quote directly, lets make this hard on myself.

You asked to define job identity and jobs playing similar in PVE all leads to a lack of identity

But what is identity. You still haven't answered that very basic question. All you have said is all jobs play the same, but you haven't really laid out any criteria that would help to distinguish jobs and give them unique identities.

This is correct, however raid buffs do not reflect how a job class plays

No it doesn't, so why list it?

With a few exceptions there are classes that have 1 minute bursts. However most have 2 minute bursts that they need to line up or delay for other classes 2 minute bursts. Sentinel, Cover, Passage are all 2 minute CDs. So the statement that PLD has no 2 minute CDs at all is false.

So again, you agree they don't all play the same. Also, the fact PLD has 2 minute defensive cooldowns is irrelevant as the topic was about, and I quote, "2 minute burst".

Warrior spams Cleave, DRK spams Bloodspiller(with new Delirium in 7.0 this may change), GNB spams Gnashing and Burst Strike and is limited by No Mercy windows, Monk has Perfect Balance phase, DRG is an outlier aiming towards triple Nastrond into Stardiver, SAM is Midare Spam, NIN is Raijin spam, Reaper is Enshroud spam, BLM is Fire 4 spam, Bard cycles through Bloodletter or Pitch Perfect spam, MCH is Heat Blast Spam. So it would seem that actually multiple jobs do indeed have a Fell Cleave phase after all.

Yes, Warrior spams cleave, however there isn't much more they need to worry about. With DRK's Delerium, with it being paired with Blood Weapon every time, you need to make sure you aren't going to overcap on Blood during this window as, for 3 GCDs, you cannot get rid of any Blood (except the 2 minute windows with Living Shadow), Gnashing Fang is something that happens every 30 seconds and you need to make sure you have a cartridge ready to use it, it isn't activated by an oGCD buff, same with Burst Strike, however, Burst Strike is closer to a gauge spender than a fell cleave spam. PB is not in any way a fell cleave spam, it is using certain GCDs in order to perform a specific Masterful Blitz which takes more thought in it's execution than just spamming fell cleave. Midare Spam, which they literally cannot do to the same degree as Fell Cleave, Raijin Spam, You could claim this, however, that misses the fact you have to set them up with Raiton and not just pressing an oGCD, which does also mean getting the right Mudra combinations, a little bit more involved than just IRFC. Enshroud Spam, going between 2 buttons, with an activated oGCD and a cast at the end as well as making your GCD faster, yes, clearly the same. Fire 4 spam, if you ignore everything else you have to consider including the AF timer and anything caused by non standard lines. Bloodletter and Pitch Perfect are not even close to Fell Cleave spam. Heat Blast spam, which also reduces the cooldown on Gauss Round and Ricochet and you have to be mindful that you don't clip into the GCD of your tools.

So, there are some very dubious correlations and again, with some, you just focused on the fact a move was used several times in succession whilst ignoring the other things the job has to consider. Infact, I am shocked beyond belief that you did not say Paladin's Blade combo. That is, by far, the closest you will get to Fell Cleave Spam with about the only difference being you can use it at range.

So do your 1-2-3 a couple times to build meter and then you burst. And using your 2 minute which is usually generating half your gauge to have a bigger burst. Most jobs have this.

Which, again, is ignoring how you build to your burst. The gameplay between bursts is just as important as the burst phases themselves.

However all this said going back to your original question what is job identity? It boils down to what does each job do that makes it unique from every other job.

Such as?

In PvP however there is a LOT of deviation. Down to defensives that grant damage shields and boost defense, AoE stuns, draw-ins/knockback, HP sacrificing attacks, GNB draw changing skills in your kit based on what role you used draw on, polymorph, AoE invulns, attacks that render you invulnerable to damage, true stealth and Death Link, Counter Attacks, delayed damage, fear effects, aoe buffs, crowd control, charm, stance swapping among others. Not to mention personal Limit Breaks that gives every player their own moment of glory and satisfaction. Which all serves to give these classes the identity players are looking for.

Ah yes, everyone's favourite topic at the moment, let's go though this:
-Defensives that grant shields, got that.
-AoE stuns, WHM Holy says hi. Though you cannot have that on too many jobs, otherwise that is a loss of identity after all.
-Draw-ins/Knockbacks. Don't know if you suffered MCH's Blank and WHM Fluid Aura, they were a pain. Draw-ins could be useful, don't see much point mechanically, but no reason why it couldn't be there for flavour. Not that either would work on bosses.
-HP sacrifice, generally considered a bad idea. Your bad HP management doesn't tend to be a you problem, it tends to be the healer's problem. And don't get me started on trying to balance HP drain to balance it out.
-GNB Draw, use DPS, that is it. You might occasionally take a defensive, if you have nothing left, but that is a last resort.
-Polymorph, wouldn't work. Bosses would be immune and turning a trash mob into an imp for some amount of time isn't going to change much. Better off retooling the button for something else.
-AoE Invulns. Yes, lets trivialise whole mechanics. Not to mention they wouldn't work for important mechanics.
-PLD/GNB say hi to full invulnerability. Don't want them to lose their identity after all.
-True Stealth and Death Link. true Stealth would just be a buff that allows you to do something, wouldn't really affect anything fight wise. Death Link wouldn't be insta killing anything, so it is just another attack that does damage.
-Counter attacks, Vengeance. Don't want to lose that identity.
-Delayed damage, Wildfire, don't want to lose that identity.
-Fear/Crowd Control/Charm. Enemies running away is annoying, CC could be useful of our attacks didn't instantly knock them out of it, though this is the same as AoE stun. Charm, effectively a draw-in, but you take no damage.
-AoE buffs, 2 minute raid buffs say hi. As for more localised buffs, could be a pain in the arse to manage depending on bosses and how you move around the arena.
-Stance Swapping. Tank stances didn't do what most claim they do, BLM swaps stances between AF and UI, Bard's songs could be seen as stances as well.
-Personal LBs, basically a long cooldown action.

Here is the problem. People see things in PvP, think, oo, that's cool, but never think about how it would function in a PvE setting. Alot of things will not work.