because of duty support is slightly more difficult content even possible?

[Merrigan]

Dungeons basically just need to have cracked AOE skills removed and an option to pull beyond what is possible with the healer literally barely present, that is it, I don’t think I’m asking much here

You forgot another factor : the fact that we have a high-ilevel gear rn. So.. Yeah, oc. The Endwalker's dungeons aren't going to be difficult. Do you remember Zot when Endwalker was launched ? As for your proposition, I would like some precise ideas - cause saying "it should be" ; "just remove cheat skills" isn't really specific.

Should we make tanks more reliable on healer ? I agree. Warrior (I am levelling it rn, since the jobs always seems... annoying, so I never bothered. Spoiler : it is annoying. And stupid). But beside that ? A dps rotation for healers, yup. And then ?

[Supersnow845]

You forgot another factor : the fact that we have a high-ilevel gear rn. So.. Yeah, oc. The Endwalker's dungeons aren't going to be difficult. Do you remember Zot when Endwalker was launched ? As for your proposition, I would like some precise ideas - cause saying "it should be" ; "just remove cheat skills" isn't really specific.

Should we make tanks more reliable on healer ? I agree. Warrior (I am levelling it rn, since the jobs always seems... annoying, so I never bothered. Spoiler : it is annoying. And stupid). But beside that ? A dps rotation for healers, yup. And then ?

Even zot is more the final boss than anything else, if someone wants to triple pull the final area of zot they should be allowed to, still zot is the high water mark, they need to “zotify” everything in EW

Bloodwhetting needs to go, the magic combo on PLD shouldn’t heal as well as holy Shelton, HOC shouldn’t be better excog healers should have more DPS options but in exchange need to heal more (id even take a nerf to healer AOE damage), BLM shouldn’t be as cracked in AOE damage as it is

Just small things like that

[Merrigan]

Even zot is more the final boss than anything else, if someone wants to triple pull the final area of zot they should be allowed to, still zot is the high water mark, they need to “zotify” everything in EW

Bloodwhetting needs to go, the magic combo on PLD shouldn’t heal as well as holy Shelton, HOC shouldn’t be better excog healers should have more DPS options but in exchange need to heal more (id even take a nerf to healer AOE damage), BLM shouldn’t be as cracked in AOE damage as it is

Just small things like that

Hm. Won't change a lot, actually. Those are really minor changes, and most of them concern job's design - not the actual difficulty and interest of dungeons. But agree, self-healing on tanks should be banned or reworked.


Will this be enough to make the dungeons interesting? No. Tank stance is a great culprit of the current monotomy imo, as well as the lack of interesting mecs for the trash's pulls.

[AmiableApkallu]

Hm. Won't change a lot, actually. Those are really minor changes, and most of them concern job's design - not the actual difficulty and interest of dungeons. But agree, self-healing on tanks should be banned or reworked.

Will this be enough to make the dungeons interesting? No. Tank stance is a great culprit of the current monotomy imo, as well as the lack of interesting mecs for the trash's pulls.

"Difficulty" and "challenge" comes from the combination of encounter design and job design. For example, as the healer, I shouldn't be able to mentally check out of a wall-to-wall pull, startle myself awake, and find the tank chugging along at 75% health. Whether you want to make the trash hit harder, or instead dial back tanks' self-healing, or some combination both, I say whatever. But something there needs to change.

That said, dungeons themselves have lost a certain sense of variety. Picking up keys in Haukke Manor. Getting chased by the tonberry in Wanderer's Palace while de-rusting the safety mechanisms. The tornados in Neverreap. Being able to choose to pull everything from the 1st boss to 2nd boss in Shisui. Interrupting the frogs in Dohn Mheg. The mini-bosses at the start of Qitana Ravel. Etc. Etc.

None of those are "challenging" or "difficult" when being done for the 100th time. But, they are the sorts of things that making running a dungeon for the first time interesting while injecting some variety into roulettes.

[Merrigan]

"Difficulty" and "challenge" comes from the combination of encounter design and job design. For example, as the healer, I shouldn't be able to mentally check out of a wall-to-wall pull, startle myself awake, and find the tank chugging along at 75% health. Whether you want to make the trash hit harder, or instead dial back tanks' self-healing, or some combination both, I say whatever. But something there needs to change.

That said, dungeons themselves have lost a certain sense of variety. Picking up keys in Haukke Manor. Getting chased by the tonberry in Wanderer's Palace while de-rusting the safety mechanisms. The tornados in Neverreap. Being able to choose to pull everything from the 1st boss to 2nd boss in Shisui. Interrupting the frogs in Dohn Mheg. The mini-bosses at the start of Qitana Ravel. Etc. Etc.

None of those are "challenging" or "difficult" when being done for the 100th time. But, they are the sorts of things that making running a dungeon for the first time interesting while injecting some variety into roulettes.

Hard agree about the need of variety - but that isn't what a lot of people are asking though. Otherwise they would have use the term "interesting" and I would definitly be alright with it. And that should be the priority, more than the difficulty in itself.

[AmiableApkallu]

Hard agree about the need of variety - but that isn't what a lot of people are asking though. Otherwise they would have use the term "interesting" and I would definitely be alright with it. And that should be the priority, more than the difficulty in itself.

What I call "interesting," the OP seems to call "spice"?

I think "difficulty" and "challenge" sometimes get used as catch-all words for "I'm bored." Or maybe also, "role responsibilities are being eroded." The latter would apply to

• Tank self-healing (erodes healer responsibility)
• Self-centering bosses and lack of untelegraphed mini-cleaves (erodes tank responsibility)
• No need to burst down trash (erodes DPS responsibility) [I have in mind here the "sleeping" mobs in Castrum Abania, Malikah's Well, and Anamnesis Anyder]

[Merrigan]

What I call "interesting," the OP seems to call "spice"?

I think "difficulty" and "challenge" sometimes get used as catch-all words for "I'm bored." Or maybe also, "role responsibilities are being eroded." The latter would apply to

• Tank self-healing (erodes healer responsibility)
• Self-centering bosses and lack of untelegraphed mini-cleaves (erodes tank responsibility)
• No need to burst down trash (erodes DPS responsibility) [I have in mind here the "sleeping" mobs in Castrum Abania, Malikah's Well, and Anamnesis Anyder]

Oh, indeed. Obviously I made the classic ‘I'm responding a bit quickly, before looking at the previous messages in more detail’ mistake. My bad. That said, be careful with the terms used, if I may say so (for the op!).

So yes, if difficulty = variety in this case it can never hurt. There are actually a lot of things that could appease the more hardcore/old-school community without terrorising new players. And without even needing to touch the classes that much, even though as a healer I'm an avid defender of a true dps cycle. Diversity in the size and shape of the arenas; interactive elements; no walls, which means you have to make a decision when the tank pulls; several paths that introduce diversity (illusory, but better than nothing); and even the possibility of not doing all the bosses, with the last one benefiting from the buffs of the previous bosses if they're not killed.