because of duty support is slightly more difficult content even possible?

[Merrigan]

2 things here

1) nobody says dungeons should be hard, but there is also something to be said that dungeons shouldn’t be so damn easy and have such broken abilities like bloodwhetting that it makes the dungeon actively unfun for other people. There should be some element of challenge in them that makes them fulfilling

2) the casual content they shouldn’t have changed was things like alliance raids which were designed to be bridging content but they have been nerfed into the floor

Casual content should still offer engagement to higher end players and offer a sense of scale, EW casual content really does neither

I agree about the alliance raids, which are derisory compared to the raids in previous expansions. But as for the dungeons, I'll say it again (and I'll do it as many times as necessary): the challenge elements are already there. I'm playing with a player who's starting again at the moment, and while he doesn't find it excruciatingly difficult, he doesn't find it extraordinarily easy either. He's an average player, with decent mmorpg experience.

And I repeat: how do you maintain a sense of 'challenge' for people like you and me, who've done them hundreds of times? When I started the extremes, I found it hard. Now I find it easy, and the main difficulty comes from the fact that I'm doing it without a cl. So I turned to sadics for my dose of difficulty. And you'll get people who've done ultimate telling you that savage is for babies.

It's a never-ending loop. You can't fight players who repeat content so often that they end up doing it blindly, watching a series and learning a musical instrument on the side. If the difficulty is raised, all that's going to happen is that we (the old-timers) will be happy for a while... Then we'll get used to it again. And ask for the difficulty to be raised again.

Pure difficulty, in terms of mechanics, is not the solution here. Perhaps a more interactive environment, or more advanced class mechanics (removing, as you said, overly cheated skills) would be better solutions. But I doubt it will be appreciated, given the general tendency to want to farm this type of content very (too) quickly.

[Supersnow845]

I agree about the alliance raids, which are derisory compared to the raids in previous expansions. But as for the dungeons, I'll say it again (and I'll do it as many times as necessary): the challenge elements are already there. I'm playing with a player who's starting again at the moment, and while he doesn't find it excruciatingly difficult, he doesn't find it extraordinarily easy either. He's an average player, with decent mmorpg experience.

And I repeat: how do you maintain a sense of 'challenge' for people like you and me, who've done them hundreds of times? When I started the extremes, I found it hard. Now I find it easy, and the main difficulty comes from the fact that I'm doing it without a cl. So I turned to sadics for my dose of difficulty. And you'll get people who've done ultimate telling you that savage is for babies.

It's a never-ending loop. You can't fight players who repeat content so often that they end up doing it blindly, watching a series and learning a musical instrument on the side. If the difficulty is raised, all that's going to happen is that we (the old-timers) will be happy for a while... Then we'll get used to it again. And ask for the difficulty to be raised again.

Pure difficulty, in terms of mechanics, is not the solution here. Perhaps a more interactive environment, or more advanced class mechanics (removing, as you said, overly cheated skills) would be better solutions. But I doubt it will be appreciated, given the general tendency to want to farm this type of content very (too) quickly.

Dungeons basically just need to have cracked AOE skills removed and an option to pull beyond what is possible with the healer literally barely present, that is it, I don’t think I’m asking much here

[Merrigan]

Dungeons basically just need to have cracked AOE skills removed and an option to pull beyond what is possible with the healer literally barely present, that is it, I don’t think I’m asking much here

You forgot another factor : the fact that we have a high-ilevel gear rn. So.. Yeah, oc. The Endwalker's dungeons aren't going to be difficult. Do you remember Zot when Endwalker was launched ? As for your proposition, I would like some precise ideas - cause saying "it should be" ; "just remove cheat skills" isn't really specific.

Should we make tanks more reliable on healer ? I agree. Warrior (I am levelling it rn, since the jobs always seems... annoying, so I never bothered. Spoiler : it is annoying. And stupid). But beside that ? A dps rotation for healers, yup. And then ?

[Supersnow845]

You forgot another factor : the fact that we have a high-ilevel gear rn. So.. Yeah, oc. The Endwalker's dungeons aren't going to be difficult. Do you remember Zot when Endwalker was launched ? As for your proposition, I would like some precise ideas - cause saying "it should be" ; "just remove cheat skills" isn't really specific.

Should we make tanks more reliable on healer ? I agree. Warrior (I am levelling it rn, since the jobs always seems... annoying, so I never bothered. Spoiler : it is annoying. And stupid). But beside that ? A dps rotation for healers, yup. And then ?

Even zot is more the final boss than anything else, if someone wants to triple pull the final area of zot they should be allowed to, still zot is the high water mark, they need to “zotify” everything in EW

Bloodwhetting needs to go, the magic combo on PLD shouldn’t heal as well as holy Shelton, HOC shouldn’t be better excog healers should have more DPS options but in exchange need to heal more (id even take a nerf to healer AOE damage), BLM shouldn’t be as cracked in AOE damage as it is

Just small things like that

[Merrigan]

Even zot is more the final boss than anything else, if someone wants to triple pull the final area of zot they should be allowed to, still zot is the high water mark, they need to “zotify” everything in EW

Bloodwhetting needs to go, the magic combo on PLD shouldn’t heal as well as holy Shelton, HOC shouldn’t be better excog healers should have more DPS options but in exchange need to heal more (id even take a nerf to healer AOE damage), BLM shouldn’t be as cracked in AOE damage as it is

Just small things like that

Hm. Won't change a lot, actually. Those are really minor changes, and most of them concern job's design - not the actual difficulty and interest of dungeons. But agree, self-healing on tanks should be banned or reworked.


Will this be enough to make the dungeons interesting? No. Tank stance is a great culprit of the current monotomy imo, as well as the lack of interesting mecs for the trash's pulls.

[AmiableApkallu]

Hm. Won't change a lot, actually. Those are really minor changes, and most of them concern job's design - not the actual difficulty and interest of dungeons. But agree, self-healing on tanks should be banned or reworked.

Will this be enough to make the dungeons interesting? No. Tank stance is a great culprit of the current monotomy imo, as well as the lack of interesting mecs for the trash's pulls.

"Difficulty" and "challenge" comes from the combination of encounter design and job design. For example, as the healer, I shouldn't be able to mentally check out of a wall-to-wall pull, startle myself awake, and find the tank chugging along at 75% health. Whether you want to make the trash hit harder, or instead dial back tanks' self-healing, or some combination both, I say whatever. But something there needs to change.

That said, dungeons themselves have lost a certain sense of variety. Picking up keys in Haukke Manor. Getting chased by the tonberry in Wanderer's Palace while de-rusting the safety mechanisms. The tornados in Neverreap. Being able to choose to pull everything from the 1st boss to 2nd boss in Shisui. Interrupting the frogs in Dohn Mheg. The mini-bosses at the start of Qitana Ravel. Etc. Etc.

None of those are "challenging" or "difficult" when being done for the 100th time. But, they are the sorts of things that making running a dungeon for the first time interesting while injecting some variety into roulettes.

[Merrigan]

"Difficulty" and "challenge" comes from the combination of encounter design and job design. For example, as the healer, I shouldn't be able to mentally check out of a wall-to-wall pull, startle myself awake, and find the tank chugging along at 75% health. Whether you want to make the trash hit harder, or instead dial back tanks' self-healing, or some combination both, I say whatever. But something there needs to change.

That said, dungeons themselves have lost a certain sense of variety. Picking up keys in Haukke Manor. Getting chased by the tonberry in Wanderer's Palace while de-rusting the safety mechanisms. The tornados in Neverreap. Being able to choose to pull everything from the 1st boss to 2nd boss in Shisui. Interrupting the frogs in Dohn Mheg. The mini-bosses at the start of Qitana Ravel. Etc. Etc.

None of those are "challenging" or "difficult" when being done for the 100th time. But, they are the sorts of things that making running a dungeon for the first time interesting while injecting some variety into roulettes.

Hard agree about the need of variety - but that isn't what a lot of people are asking though. Otherwise they would have use the term "interesting" and I would definitly be alright with it. And that should be the priority, more than the difficulty in itself.