Give Warrior the Dark Knight treatment in regards to Bloodwhetting

[Sqwall]

Okay, call me a hair splitter. But then don't pretend that Drk excells at damage.
Warrior main thinks Warrior is fine. Man that's crazy. No, Warrior doesn't need to be the best everywhere. And i don't want healing on Dark knight. I want it do have strengths and weaknesses.
I want all the tanks to have strengths and weaknesses, including Warrior.

I don't pretend that DRK excels at damage...I think DRK's damage is disgusting...I envy it.
And i'm not a Warrior Main...I was from SHB to EW PLD rework...went back to PLD around P11s maybe....I would have to look at our discord when I let my raid leader know I was changing.

PLD - Pros. Self sustain. Many mitigation choices. Best range Tank. Strong Raid utility.
Cons. Lower Damage output compared to other tanks. Oath Bar mitigations are expensive. MP management. Long invuln CD.

WAR - Pros. High Self Sustain. High Damage output. Short invuln CD. Moderate Raid utuilty. Beast gauge low impact cost.
Con. Less Mitigation choices. Requires target to full self healing. Can be boring to play. (own opinion)

DRK - Pros. High damage output. Moderate invuln CD. TBN. Low impact Blood Gauge cost. Moderate Raid utility.
Cons. MP management. Zero to low sustain. Weaker mitigation choices.

GNB - Pros. High Damage output. Moderate invuln CD. Low impact cartridge cost. Moderate Raid utility.
Cons. Busy rotation. Movement while burst. Low mitigation choices.

This is the way I see it. I could go into great detail of why I think each tank excels at certain things...but I would need to start another thread to write pages on pages of why each tank has it's pros/cons.

[Sqwall]

queue's into casual content, invalidates the healer's role while falling asleep at the keyboard "yeah WAR is fine"

You're damn right I would complain if our sustain was too strong. I don't want to be good at everything and make it effortless. I want there to be strengths and weakness because that means I actually might need to pay attention a little, who knew?

I haven't run war on casual content in like 2 years.

Besides I have been asking for harder casual content for 5 years now.....ever since they stopped offering hard mode dungeons. I want dungeons to be harder....which is why I don't run them....they bore me on ANY job.

[Sqwall]

queue's into casual content, invalidates the healer's role while falling asleep at the keyboard "yeah WAR is fine"

You're damn right I would complain if our sustain was too strong. I don't want to be good at everything and make it effortless. I want there to be strengths and weakness because that means I actually might need to pay attention a little, who knew?

And also don't blame war for invalidating a healer in CASUAL content....that's on the devs for not making casual content hard enough and can be out geared in hours.

You want healers to heal....have the tank actually get the shit kicked out of him....physical vuln debuffs....damage up buffs....force them to stop wall to wall pulling....

MAKE IT HARDDDDD! Then healers might actually get the message....o man...I gotta heal!?

[Zairava]

I don't pretend that DRK excels at damage...I think DRK's damage is disgusting...I envy it.
And i'm not a Warrior Main...I was from SHB to EW PLD rework...went back to PLD around P11s maybe....I would have to look at our discord when I let my raid leader know I was changing.

PLD - Pros. Self sustain. Many mitigation choices. Best range Tank. Strong Raid utility
Cons. Lower Damage output compared to other tanks. Oath Bar mitigations are expensive. MP management. Long invuln CD.

WAR - Pros. High Self Sustain. High Damage output. Short invuln CD. Moderate Raid utuilty. Beast gauge low impact cost.
Con. Less Mitigation choices. Requires target to excel truly excel. Tomahawk potency is weak.

DRK - Pros. High damage output. Moderate invuln CD. TBN. Low impact Blood Gauge cost. Moderate Raid utility.
Cons. MP management. Zero to low sustain. Weaker mitigation choices.

GNB - Pros. High Damage output. Moderate invuln CD. Low impact cartridge cost. Moderate Raid utility.
Cons. Busy rotation. Movement while burst. Low mitigation choices.

This is the way I see it. I could go into great detail of why I think each tank excels at certain things...but I would need to start another thread to write pages on pages of why each tank has it's pros/cons.

...huh?

Warrior has the best party utility of the tanks. Divine veil provides a heal and a shield, Shake it Off gives a shield, a heal AND a HoT. Warrior also has Nascent Flash. Warrior doesn't need another target to use Bloodwhetting, which is bar none THE most busted tank cooldown in the game where multitarget is involved. Tomahawk is the same exact potency as the other tanks' standard ranged attack. Beast Gauge actions cost the same as Oath Gauge and Blood Gauge actions. The only difference between them is that DRK and WAR currently have easier access since PLD gauge is generated by auto attacks. Even then, I don't see the Oath Gauge as a con.

Paladin doesn't really have MP management, nor does DRK. The last time DRK had any real MP management was Stormblood. Also, why is that a con? MP management is a good thing because that means there's a more involved job kit generally. See: Black Mage. You don't get many places where Passage of Arms can properly be used without sacrificing dps.

DRK also has the most potent defensive kit, so I couldn't possibly tell you why you think it has the weaker mitigation choices. However, you listing WAR as "moderate raid utility" alongside DRK and GNB is outright criminal.

GNB has the most mitigation options because of camouflage, actually. A busy rotation being a "con" is up to the player, I'd rather be busy than asleep at the keyboard.

It's been getting increasingly hard to take you seriously

[Zairava]

And also don't blame war for invalidating a healer in CASUAL content....that's on the devs for not making casual content hard enough and can be out geared in hours.

You want healers to heal....have the tank actually get the shit kicked out of him....physical vuln debuffs....damage up buffs....force them to stop wall to wall pulling....

MAKE IT HARDDDDD! Then healers might actually get the message....o man...I gotta heal!?

It's feedback...on Warrior. That I'm providing on the forums. It is literally Warrior that, if brought into dungeons will easily invalidate the healer role.

Let's be real here, if we're talking dungeons, they would have to amp the incoming damage a LOT to make up for bloodwhetting, so much so the other tanks might not be able to handle it in their current state even with healers. So tell me, what becomes the most sensible and easy option:

1) Make Bloodwhetting heal once per GCD, or per target and make it function identical to how Nascent Flash did in Shadowbringers

2) Balance every single dungeon around WAR existing

[Kabooa]

It's feedback...on Warrior. That I'm providing on the forums. It is literally Warrior that, if brought into dungeons will easily invalidate the healer role.

Let's be real here, if we're talking dungeons, they would have to amp the incoming damage a LOT to make up for bloodwhetting, so much so the other tanks might not be able to handle it in their current state even with healers. So tell me, what becomes the most sensible and easy option:

1) Make Bloodwhetting heal once per GCD, or per target and make it function identical to how Nascent Flash did in Shadowbringers

2) Balance every single dungeon around WAR existing

Well, it's clearly option 3 and just give all tanks Bloodwhetting. It isn't very strong after all.

[GoatOfWar]

I don't pretend that DRK excels at damage...I think DRK's damage is disgusting...I envy it.
And i'm not a Warrior Main...I was from SHB to EW PLD rework...went back to PLD around P11s maybe....I would have to look at our discord when I let my raid leader know I was changing.

PLD - Pros. Self sustain. Many mitigation choices. Best range Tank. Strong Raid utility.
Cons. Lower Damage output compared to other tanks. Oath Bar mitigations are expensive. MP management. Long invuln CD.

WAR - Pros. High Self Sustain. High Damage output. Short invuln CD. Moderate Raid utuilty. Beast gauge low impact cost.
Con. Less Mitigation choices. Requires target to full self healing. Can be boring to play. (own opinion)

DRK - Pros. High damage output. Moderate invuln CD. TBN. Low impact Blood Gauge cost. Moderate Raid utility.
Cons. MP management. Zero to low sustain. Weaker mitigation choices.

GNB - Pros. High Damage output. Moderate invuln CD. Low impact cartridge cost. Moderate Raid utility.
Cons. Busy rotation. Movement while burst. Low mitigation choices.

This is the way I see it. I could go into great detail of why I think each tank excels at certain things...but I would need to start another thread to write pages on pages of why each tank has it's pros/cons.

There's nothing to be envious of, Dark knight doesn't do more dps.
And as of now, Warrior has the best utility. An entire tier was defined around Holmgang. Hallowed ground's cooldown is nearly twice as long.. Shake it off is the best partywide mit, Nascent is disgusting, Warrior sustain is unrivalled. It even gets extra gap closers and kb resist for some reason. War being a better main tank and healer than the Paladin is kinda crazy.
I don't think you're arguing in good faith if you think PLD has the best utility.
Drk's mitigation is fine, it's not weaker. It just can't burst itself back up without help.
Gnb barely does more damage than Warrior. You're looking at like 100-200 more dps. And it requires full uptime fights to barely edge ahead of War.
I think Warrior players need to pick one thing what they want to be the best at and stick with just that.
If you want to be the best at multiple things you should start asking for dps nerfs.

[Lyth]

I think the question to ask yourself is: What failure conditions are built into tanks' gameplay?

To use Yoshi-p's analogy, if you were playing a platformer, if you miss a jump, there's a time cost associated with that. Either you lose a life, or your progress reverts back to an earlier state. Raid content has plenty of mechanical pass-fail checks where the raid wipes and you go back to the start of the the fight. DPS have a failure state in which you fail a check and hit an enrage. Support roles contribute to this as well, but to a much lesser extent by pure numerical design. What failure states do tanks have outside of this?

Historically, there were several. Positioning a boss incorrectly could lead to uptime loss and even unresolvable mechanics. That generally doesn't happen because bosses tend to reposition themselves and then animation lock prior to major mechanics checks. That pitfall is gone. Snap enmity was another classical one, because a stray add would generally kill off your healers and then wipe the raid. Again, that pitfall is gone, in part because adds tend to be less frequent, and because snap enmity has been trivial since Stormblood. Another pitfall gone.

The last and final differentiating factor that tanks have is mitigation and survival. Damage is completely predictable without random elements like critical hits. Autos don't hurt as much as they should. Timings tend to be relatively clear cut without untelegraphed cleaves. You have ready access to invulns which let you completely bypass a tankbuster or certain situational mechanics. You have healing built into your base rotation, almost as a passive regen. You have on demand instant heals like Equilibrium in the event that your HP becomes uncomfortably low. You have free burst healing on a short recast. And if you somehow mess this all up, there's generally a second, thoroughly bored tank waiting as an understudy to swap in and take over at a moment's notice. This is the crux of a 'platformer without pitfalls'.

In the absence of these traditional failure conditions, tanking gets reduced to being a melee dps on training wheels. You have the resources to survive failing multiple mechanics with vuln stacks, but you also don't matter as much when it comes to the only failure condition that matters - the dps check. It's gone from being a high value, high impact role to being a very safe one. It's incredibly disappointing, as someone who's enjoyed tanks in games for over 10 years.

I don't think we'll see much in the way of improving positioning and movement design of fights in this game. The baseline movement of mobs has been incredibly janky since ARR, and vastly worse than even circa 2004 World of Warcraft. I don't know if we'll see more snap enmity challenges in the future. I think the survival challenge is pretty much the last bastion of tanking, and it's being eroded by upwards inflation of mitigation tools, with WAR leading the charge. I think if you want people to value the work that good tanks do, then you have to design gameplay such that tanks actually die as a failure condition. Giving every tank passive regens, on-demand burst healing and shields without resource costs, and low recast invulns erodes the challenge of tanking. It makes it more accessible, and takes away tankxiety. But if everyone can do it without effort, then nobody respects or values it. And WAR is the prime example of this.

This may sound counterintuitive, but the way to change community perspectives and raise the value of tanks is to reign in the power creep across all tanks simultaneously. Unfortunately, that may mean some tanks get affected worse than others. It's fine to have lifesteal, but make it a proactive process. Limit resources. Have conditions where the healing effectiveness changes based off of incoming or outgoing damage. Rebalance invulns, make them less accessible, and force tanks to use alternatives or swap more frequently. Create more opportunities for failure. Without pitfalls, you're not playing a platformer, you're playing a walking simulator.

You really do not see the absurdity in pointing out you can't heal with Bloodwhetting during untargetable phases while also praising the Blade Combo?

This was pretty funny. What's especially entertaining is the fact that the P9S and P12S Limit Cut intermissions last tier were downtime periods involving raidwide damage with active healers present. It's nice to help out where you can, but I think that it's interesting that we have the luxury of burning otherwise unneeded mitigation cooldowns for bonus healing. I wonder if there couldn't have been outgoing tankbusters during these phases to actually give tanks a unique fail condition.

[Supersnow845]

^lyth brings up a good point, square has repeatedly said they don’t like one member of the party to be the fail point of any pickup group. Traditionally in MMO’s there are 2/3 failure points, namely the tank and the healer and the cc/support if your MMO has that older archetype

However as we can see from the design decisions they have made since ShB they have reduced these failure points in different ways

Healers have been simplified and had vast parts of their kit ripped out and given to the other roles while being given a bloat of tools they don’t need

Meanwhile tanks have been buffed so far it’s almost impossible for them to actually make a mistake and if they do it generally doesn’t actually put them in any danger

This connects to the idea that tanks being constantly buffed is what is actively making them boring, they have been buffed so far they have buffed anything interesting out of the way they interact with the game. They are never going to go back and change content enough that these buffs are warranted so I honestly believe the only way to make tanks fun again is to nerf them

Right now tanks and healers are playing a different game to the DPS but healers it’s boring because they have nothing to do and tanks it’s boring because they are playing god

[Oizen]

And also don't blame war for invalidating a healer in CASUAL content....that's on the devs for not making casual content hard enough and can be out geared in hours.

You want healers to heal....have the tank actually get the shit kicked out of him....physical vuln debuffs....damage up buffs....force them to stop wall to wall pulling....

MAKE IT HARDDDDD! Then healers might actually get the message....o man...I gotta heal!?

Ima be honest I dont think its possible to balance casual AOE content around Bloodwhetting, its so absurdly strong in AOE that you honestly end up just wasting 80% of its healing.
I cant imagine how hard mobs would have to hit to contest it.

Like I agree normal content could be made harder, but I do actually think that Bloodwhetting is the biggest barrier keeping that from ever happening.