Character graphical changes are NOT in an acceptable state, please make it optional

[Anarnee]

Seeing as this thread is only people complaining about stuff are Miqote, Elezen, Humans, Aura and Vieras. And almost next to none hrothgar, roes and lalafells. Makes me wonder if the only reason Roes/Hrothgars and a bit of lalafels didn't see that much of a drastic changes in their characters because of how unpopular they are (Exception lalas). Tho i for sure see couple problems with the eye shape, and mouths being flatter which is a common thing in every race change it seems, its didnt affect that much afromentioned races.

I've def seen plenty of Roegadyn and Lalafell complaints, but we're much fewer in number so it makes sense that not as many would be seen.
I also feel like the only face for Femroe that was hit particularly hard was face 2. The other three seem great.

Only complaint I've seen for all faces is that they lightened our Hellsguard ash smudge, and there is a dedicated thread for it.

Lalafells also made their own thread.

Hey! Wanted to bring up another thread to add to the index of issues. Hellsguard Roegadyn also have some smudge issues on the nose. Can you add this to the Arbitrary/Unwanted Changes list?

Roegadyn Thread

Hello! I wanted to give my own input after I saw the changes to Female Roegadyn and felt the same disappointment as a lot of people in this thread. I worry with DT so close to release, not a lot of these issues will be addressed in time (if at all), but I'll keep my fingers crossed and hope that something at least does change.

I took a few different shots in the different character lighting to emphasize my issues and made a comparison chart hoping it might help see the issues more clearly.
Like most, I have problems with the current lighting on characters, but I'm not too worried about it cause it seems like a rather high priority issue. If the devs didn't address it by the time DT is released, I'd be baffled. Anyway, here is what I got:
Endwalker (6.5.8) on the left, Dawntrail benchmark (7.0.0) on the right


As I hope people are able to see, there are definitely some changes. The most noticeable ones to me are that of the eye shape, the eyebrows, the nose smudge and the lips. I know a few people have commented on these before, but again, consider it some extra data.

Changes from 6.5.8 to 7.0.0 (benchmark)

• The biggest difference is the eye shape. A lot of WoLs look a lot more tired with big, heavy lids and my WoL is no different. I believe this is due to the upper lash line being quite a bit smaller, allowing for more lid space to open up. I also find the black makeup on her eyes (roegadyn feature) is lighter than it is on the left
• The eyebrows are thinner, resulting in a more down turned and angry look
• The nose smudge, like the makeup, is also lighter and I wonder if it is related to the colours or to the lighting
• The lips are missing their corners, and the lip colour layout makes the upper lip appear thinner and the lower lip appear larger

As an aside, it could be just the lighting or the shape of the eyes, but it seems to me like the nose shape is slightly different? I included it in my comparison chart below but I'm not 100% if it's a valid issue.

Here is my side by side of the two faces below, as well as a couple overlays for better comparison. If you can't read the text, it's basically the same list as above. Hope this helps somebody!


EDIT: if anyone, for whatever reason, wanted the comparison image at a higher res, you can grab it from https://imgur.com/a/1yHijca

I made my post in the other thread;

Yeah, it's so incredibly upsetting to look at my Femroe. I've only done three of them but they all look off. The skin colors are desaturated, the lip shapes are very different. The way they did the eyelashes on a lot of the eyes make the faces look sharper... It looks like my girls have permanent /sneer on and completely changes the impression of them.



Skin color is LIGHTER and washed out and while I can make her a little darker to kinda correct it, I can't do that with my girl who is already on the darkest setting.



She looks ashy, greener and washed out and I can't make her darker. Her upper lip is thinner too.



It's so baffling that they lightened the ash on the noses so much, and the black eye shadow/liner. It's barely there at all.

and another notable one post from another thread is;

It's taken me a day to process because I'm still quite upset about this all, but compiled here with direct match-for-match comparison caps and my thoughs as to some of the changes. A little more in-depth than my prior mood of just 'well, goodbye to my character.'

For the record:
Yes I have run the benchmark. I am aware the CC lighting is not 'the same' as the dynamic in-engine lighting. I can't get comparable side-by-side caps of Sko outside of the CC. The only thing the benchmark actually running showed me was that her skin is a touch warmer and more like her in-game and PS5 CC colouration, and that my concerns regarding other things are still quite valid.





The pros:

• Texture update generally seems to be OK - there are issues with the way hair blends into the forehead made by floating sections on certain racial styles and the new lighting engine shading under them so it makes it blatant they're floating, but that can be ironed out.
• Racial gear texture update is great.
• Hair might be OK with tweaks, the clasp at the back on this style has clearly not been updated yet as it is very poorly textured and looks flat.

The cons:

• I can live without the permanent catch light. I don't think the black pupils works on f!roegadyn after almost 10 years of seeing them with the coloured/jewel effect. Impacts lighter eyes especially.
• Rhinarium/ash/smudge being made so light in the new skin is a problem; the lighting engine will not magically make it darker. Removal of prominent racial specific traits like this erases identity and makes it hard to believe the intended PLL statement that our characters will simply 'look better.'
• Lips certainly aren't fantastic - the new facial bones have adjusted how the lips sit and they seem to be quite a bit smaller?
• Tattoos and face paints still being 256px is pretty jarring. I suspect this will be fixed in time but it's really awful in the benchmark.
• Angle of the new lashes seems to be heavily impacting the visual of the already problematic new eyes, shades them intensely and even in scenes where there should be more brightness to the eyes it makes them very dark.

The problem of streamlining the workflow for the update so that all human-like characters are stemmed from hyuran models is really starting to show, even within the hyur themselves seeing a lot of disparity between midlanders and highlanders. I know roegadyn are not exactly a beastial race compared to the likes of viera, or au'ra, but we're losing a lot of the galkan origins from the XI roots of this race with so much smoothing out.

and I've seen a few on the JP side too;

ルガディンのローエンガルデを使用しています。
鼻の黒い部分が薄くなっていて残念でした。

薄いほうが好きな人もいるとは思うので、こちらはホクロなどのように選べるようになれば嬉しいです。

She is complaining about the nose smudge being lightened

初めてフォーラムへ投稿させていただきます。至らぬ点がございましたら申し訳ございません。
また、添付する参考画像につきまして1枚のみ現在版・ベンチマーク版と左右が異なる＆画質が荒くなってしまっていることをご了承ください。(わかりやすくする為に一部前髪のない画像にしています。)

ルガディンゼーヴォルフ♀2顔でプレイしております。
まずはベンチマーク実装ありがとうございます。
グラフィックアップデートにつきまして、既出の情報がほとんどではありますが記載させていただきますことをご容赦ください。
また、個人的な好みの問題になってしまう部分が多いかと思いますが、現状のお顔立ちをどうしてもなくしたくないため何卒宜しくお願い致します。

【鼻の形状について】
現在の形状が角ばっており、極端な言い方をすると長方形の立方体を付けたような鼻だと思っているのですが、そこがルガディンゼーヴォルフ♀の良さ・チャームポイントだと思っていました。
ベンチマークでは人間らしいリアルで自然な丸みのある鼻になっており、印象が柔らかく見えます。

【目について】
現在より目の大きさが小さくなっている・両目の間隔が広がっているように見えます。両目の幅が広がっていることにより、鼻を含むお顔立ちの印象も変わってきているのかもしれません。

【眉毛の濃さについて】
眉毛の毛量なのか色なのか不明ですが、現在よりベンチマークの方が薄いため、キリっとしたキツめな印象が薄れています。

【唇の形状・質感について】
唇の厚さと形(色がついている面積)が現在から変更になっており、お顔立ちの印象が変わってしまいました。他の唇の形を試したのですが今の印象に近づけることができません。
また、室内外問わず光加減によっては現在のような艶感がなくなり、完全にマットな仕上がりとなっているように見受けられます。
プリっとした艶の光が入っている現在の唇が好みです。

【お顔の肌について】
ルガディンならではの両頬のそばかすのような肌が顕著な印象です。現状のように強調されていない、肌馴染みしている程度のそばかす感にしたいです。

人間らしいリアルさ・自然さを表現したグラフィック改修という視点で見れば素晴らしいのですが、
現実的な形状よりも、良い意味で人間らしくないルガディンならではのファンタジーなお顔立ちのほうが好みのため、今の形状も選択できるように残していただければ大変嬉しく思います。
しかし、装備の金属や皮布の質感、室内での発色の良さが向上しているグラフィックアップデートは素晴らしいと思いました。

以下、勝手な想像ではありますが、色味や形状の変化などのこれら全ては「画質(グラフィック)を向上させたことによって、意図的に変更はしていないが変更されたように見えてしまっている」部分があるのではないかと推測しております。
(景色の色をリアルに反射させた結果、キャラの肌や唇の色が変更されて見える。ドットを増やし、カクカクしていた輪郭などを滑らかにした結果、鼻や輪郭が変更されたように見える。)
あくまで憶測のため、間違っていれば申し訳ございません。なんとか現状の雰囲気を選択肢として残せるようにしてはいただけないでしょうか。
ご検討宜しくお願い致します。

She is complaining about the rounder nose, amongst other things.

Lots of Roe complaints, and this is just the Femroe, I feel like I saw way more male Roe complaints.

[Doopliss]

Again, to try to say they're going out of their way to 'trick' players is unjustifiably suggesting malice. Yes, the example images we got were quite limited and I agree it would have been far, far better had we been able to see these changes applied to our own characters long before this so that there was time to adjust any identified flaws or community-wide complaints. I'm sure they wouldn't intentionally elect to have such an uproar so close to release, so I presume there was some behind-the-scenes reason for such a late benchmark release. This isn't a minor update in the slightest - there's bound to be issues and delays, many that we won't know about.

From what I've seen, the characters we have been shown in examples thus far seem very much the same as what we have now - as shown in that Miqote example. The dimples are there, the slightly wider face was there. But it being an unfamiliar face made all the difference

Whuh? I don't have much to say since it seems like everything you follow up with is in agreement...? But my useage of the word "trick" was simply a shorthand to explain why people were thinking an image might have a different impression than what we got. I've no malice, only concern and questions. Which feels to be the majority, honestly.

EDIT: Actually, looking back at my response, it feels super disingenuous to snip my response and then imply that I used that word in such a way, when my sentence was "...I actually think people are getting tricked by these still example images..." Come on, man.

[Scintilla]

snip

So the two main points are:
- Lip Shape
- 'Depression Line' running the length of the lips and extending slightly to the cheek, creating a dimpled appearance either side of the mouth.
- Shadows appearance around the mouth

First things to highlight is the obvious difference in lip choice between your own character and that of the example (fuller lips in your own character vs thinner option in the example) and the slightly different position of both characters (the example image and, to a lesser extent, your first image being rotated very slightly to the right. Your own benchmark image being more front-facing).



In the example image:
- The outer lip shape remains largely the same. The only slight difference perhaps is the curves to the lips have been soften slightly.

- The inner line though has been changed. It no longer flexes in the middle to mirror the cupids-bow, it now remains a straight line, perhaps with a marginal upward curve at the edges. Shadows on the top lip and beneath that line have been deepened slightly, giving that curved, depressed appearance, and it extends slightly beyond the lips creating a slight dimple at either side.

- Shadows around the lips are primarily beneath the bottom lip and either side around that extended depression line, creating the dimples.




In your image:
- The top lip appears the same, except the curves have been soften slightly and the colour has become a single block, rather than having smaller shadows within the lip around the cupids-bow (like the example). Perhaps that is the reason for the flatter appearance you say you see?
In regards to the bottom lip, I'm torn as to how much or how little it's changed. Upon first glance it appears a little more boxy, with the lower edge being less of a smooth curve. Though I can't decide whether this is the combined result of both the lower-lip shadow appearance and the lip colour itself being a little less defined in the benchmark or whether this actually is a structure change. The more I look at it, the more I'm leaning towards the former, but let's err on the side of caution and say it's the latter as you claim.

- Like the example image, the inner line is flattened, the top lip is darker (perhaps this is more obvious on your own character because that lip is bigger than in the example), and there is a slight shadow running beneath that line. The line runs beyond the lip edge, into the cheeks (like in the example)

- As for shadows around the lips: the shadows on your benchmark is in the same place as the example (beneath the lower lip and at either edge of the lips at the dimples) One thing I would say is that the shadows are deeper on your benchmark than on the examples, leading to a greater contrast at those dimpled areas making them appear very slightly more pronounced. But this is shadow - not structural. That could be any number of reasons: positioning? lighting? settings? an unfortunate consequence of your own choice of lip shape compared to that of the example?


Ultimately, I think the look is more to do with shadowing/shadow appearance. I know that isn't what you'll want to hear because a physical lip structure change is a far more straightforward reason suggesting a more straightforward solution. I don't doubt you'll strongly disagree with me too.

On a more lighthearted note, I don't think I have ever stared at a character's lips for so long!

[Scintilla]

I find it interesting how this “being dramatic” argument is coming solely from players who are happy with the changes and wish for them to be pushed forward no matter what. If you are not an affected party the least you can do is to not minimise or dismiss other people concerns and emotional response.

Given that I will be changing features on one of my Viera's and a possible full race change on the other (Elezen will be the choice if I do), it would be lying to say I wasn't affected. Yet here I am agreeing that some posters are being dramatic

[witchymumma]

Seeing so many ppl in the community being so apathetic & dismissive of something that is obviously very important for a large portion of the playerbase (especially in a game so heavily story & character-driven) is kinda more frustrating than the non-consensual plastic surgery my girl (& a lot of us) has had. It's like telling someone with depression to cheer/toughen up because "it's not that bad" or "other ppl have it worse".

(for context, my bun-girl uses face 4. The other bun-girl faces have had the expected glo-up ("looks the same but better" as I saw someone put it) but face 4's lips have completely changed shape. And sadly with the current restrictive CC locking features to specific faces there is no amount of fantasia I can throw at her that will let me slap face 1's lips (which look fairly similar to 4's current ones) onto face 4 so she looks like my character again... so RIP)

For ppl who didn't have much change on their character, aren't particularly attached to their character in the first place, or who get bored with theirs and fanta every few months, it might not seem like much for an issue. But for the ppl who are attached to their character (which is clearly a lot of ppl), it is a big deal (especially when they were under the impression that this wouldn't happen) & having others telling you to get over it, it's not that bad, to stop nitpicking/overreacting, you're just not used to it, etc (like I've seen a lot of ppl doing) just adds to the frustration.
How would you like it if you went to get a haircut/trim, somehow dozed off & woke up with implants that you definitely did not ask for? And then you had ppl tell you to stop overreacting when you try to explain how/why you're so upset about it?

If you're one of those folks that wasn't impacted that much by the update, that's great! But please, try not to downplay/dismiss other ppl's disappointment/frustrations. Most ppl here aren't complaining for the sake of complaining, they trying to give constructive feedback (often with examples) which is what the forums are for. And yes, not all feedback has to be negative & we're not saying don't share how much you love your character's new look, it's just not necessary (or helpful) to minimise other ppl's less-than-positive experiences in the process.

On a more positive note, really happy that there are so many ppl that are happy/content with their characters. In general, I think the update looks great so far (textures on the clothes look particularly good). Obviously it's not perfect, there's still quite a lot than could/should be improved/fixed but hopefully they will address the community's biggest concerns as soon as they're able. *huffs the copium* lol
Also, optimisation team seems to have done a really good job. I've seen a lot of happy comments from ppl, who were worried that their potato wouldn't be able to handle DT, having their benchmark results come back a lot higher than they expected

[Anarnee]

I think the look is more to do with shadowing/shadow appearance.

I feel like this def has to be a lot more than lighting. A lot of these remodels have been deceptive in 2D, I couldn't tell why my femroes lips looks so much flatter at first and then I tilted the camera some more and you can easily see the difference in the shape. Even if the new lips were not just flat across the board I'd just believe her cause I've been seeing everyone else find these differences with the lips in particular. It also def looks like the original lips rest in a smile and the new ones... I don't know what that's doing.

[Scintilla]

Seeing so many ppl in the community being so apathetic & dismissive of something that is obviously very important for a large portion of the playerbase (especially in a game so heavily story & character-driven) is kinda more frustrating than the non-consensual plastic surgery my girl (& a lot of us) has had. It's like telling someone with depression to cheer/toughen up because "it's not that bad" or "other ppl have it worse".
....
But for the ppl who are attached to their character (which is clearly a lot of ppl), it is a big deal (especially when they were under the impression that this wouldn't happen) & having others telling you to get over it, it's not that bad, to stop nitpicking/overreacting, you're just not used to it, etc (like I've seen a lot of ppl doing) just adds to the frustration.

You have to look at this objectively though. A large proportion of people here have sought to be empathetic and supportive, tried to offer advice (changing maps, watching the benchmark before making any hasty judgement, altering graphics settings and Gamma Correction etc.), tried to offer reassurance (the lighting in the CC isn't the best and things may not look so bad once you actually get into the game, hope that SE will make adjustments in the future to fix a few of these issues etc.) but in return, all they are met with is hostility. If you want sympathy and support, don't harass your supporters.

[Anarnee]

Seeing so many ppl in the community being so apathetic & dismissive of something that is obviously very important for a large portion of the playerbase is kinda more frustrating...

I could not agree more, especially since I've seen everyone being rather respectful with their feedback, while trying to battle with the heavy feelings of it... At times it seems like folks are trying to gaslight people into believing they're not seeing something that they're clearly seeing. No one is going after the folks that are saying that they like their characters in the threads, but everyone trying to point out clear flaws are constantly getting told "it looks better now" "It looks the same" and it's feeling severely disrespectful.

[decomposer]

I'm an artist too and I do think these changes make the characters look different so I don't know how helpful these appeals to our perceived creative authority* are.

This brings up a very interesting point I have been meaning to articulate on these forums. I am a professional artist as well, and beyond my commercial client work, my supplemental (and sometimes primary) income is private commissions for clients. Most of these clients are FFXIV players. For the last 5+ years, drawing peoples FFXIV characters and warriors of light has, quite literally, been a breadwinner.

If other artists see no changes, that's okay! Artists are not uniform. We all look at the world differently and translate it visually ; that's what makes our "style."

However, when I look at a lot of the changes I've seen on this forum (especially to eyes, lips, noses, and jawlines) I immediately see how I would draw that character differently. Even my own character no longer has a defined brow bridge and nose hook ; defining traits that I have stylized in my own artwork of him. They make him who he is!

This sort of branches into a different subject entirely, but I think it's a good thing to note that FFXIV players (at least according to my own clientele and the clientele of my friends) far surpass even DND, WOW, and BG3 players in terms of how often they commission their characters. Not to say that buying artwork = more love for a character, but there's a culture of loving one's WOL here that isn't always the same elsewhere. There's people out there that a Louve-worth of artwork of their precious characters. Entire ita-bags dedicated to their characters!

TLDR; these character changes might seem "small" to some (or even most!) but to others, changing features and altering the lighting so drastically that the character looks different will not only be noticeable, it might have lasting implications for clients who (do) enjoy commissioning artwork of their ocs.

I definitely think some people are being a bit reactive (out of love, I know) but there have been a good handful of characters I've seen on here where I've thought "damn, I would draw this character very differently, or cast them with a different mood entirely." I hope that we can all find a happy medium, and that the devs listen to some of the very real concerns.

[Luluna]

I am happy enough with the update, it happened to me and many other players coming from 1.0. I miss my gloss that is it on the lips and would like that back but as far as other things it looks nice and I am looking forward to having a play around. I did notice once my character was moving around and in the actual benchmark she looked more or less the same.