After 1 (arguably 2) expansions what is square trying to achieve with WAR (and PLD)?

[Gemina]

The playerbase cannibalizing itself has basically always been the modus operandi. The JP players are blaming us, we're blaming the JP players and each other, when in fact none of us are responsible for the state that these jobs are in, we're not developing the damn game.
Even if we ask for certain changes, the awful implementations are still not us.

You understand that this view is a two-way street, correct? The playerbase is pretty damn quick to give themselves credit when the dev team implements something based on player feedback that has positive reception. It's also quite the coincidence that anything they seem to do right is always based on player feedback.

[Absurdity]

You understand that this view is a two-way street, correct? The playerbase is pretty damn quick to give themselves credit when the dev team implements something based on player feedback that has positive reception. It's also quite the coincidence that anything they seem to do right is always based on player feedback.

Who actually pats themselves on the back when the devs implement popular requests? You didn't do jack besides ask for something, so both good and bad implementations are on them.
Unless we get to the point where we need to specifically detail how to implement something.

[TheOperator3712]

To tackle the problem, one must first correctly define it. It does not seem to me that the problem is tank self-sustain. Considering that the game is balanced for Savage, and that these abilities are mostly fine in Savage, I don't think the issue can solely be attributed to tank design. Rather I think this a compound issue of tank design, healer design, and fight design. So basically everything except DPS design.

Healers need a total redesign. Their design is completely backwards of what a new player would expect. Healing has other major issues, such as not having any healthy options for future ability additions. However the fact that it is so completely backwards of what you would expect is honestly enough to rework the entire role.

Fight design's problems stem from being too focused on large hits every minute or so, auto-centering, not enough damage to warrant healing outside of savage, etc. I think the biggest issue here actually is the gap between an expert dungeon and Savage in terms of difficulty. Obviously an expert shouldn't be as hard as Savage, but the gap shouldn't be so vast that abilities are massively over tuned for normal content either.

Tank design... Look, tank self-sustain is the least of the issues with tanks in my opinion. Ever since the removal of TP and Enmity, tanks have just been boring. Mitigation isn't fun, and rotations aren't fun. That didn't used to be an issue because you also had to watch enmity and TP, which was just enough to make it fun(especially in casual content where DPS never used enmity dumps). If your goal is to actually fix tank design, then you have to address the whole issue. Which probably means redesigning tanks so that their mitigation and rotation interact with each other.

If your whole goal is just to stop one or no healer runs in trials and raids, then the quick solution is to either increase the MP cost of Paladin's magic burst or put clemency on a CD. If you want to make WARs mortal in dungeons, then put a 5 target cap on BW/NF. Though those would just be band-aids on top of a stack of band-aids on top of an amputation at this point.

Looking at all of this, I can't honestly tell you what the heck SE is trying to do with this game. It looks to me that they have no idea what they are doing.

[Oizen]

5 Target cap would still make WAR immortal. It could honestly just heal once per gcd rather than per target and it still be fairly strong. Right now the per target healing is so overtuned that it honestly is mostly wasted, a single GCD takes you from 0 to max, even worse if you crit boost it.

Just making it heal once per GCD would make it a lot more manageable and not even impact its use in Raiding.

[TheOperator3712]

5 Target cap would still make WAR immortal. It could honestly just heal once per gcd rather than per target and it still be fairly strong. Right now the per target healing is so overtuned that it honestly is mostly wasted, a single GCD takes you from 0 to max, even worse if you crit boost it.

Just making it heal once per GCD would make it a lot more manageable and not even impact its use in Raiding.

Once per GCD is a target cap of 1, and would make the healing basically useless when pulling wall to wall.

[GoatOfWar]

Once per GCD is a target cap of 1, and would make the healing basically useless when pulling wall to wall.

Would it? I mean, you still get 20% mit, you still get a shield half as big as TBN and 1200-1600 potency worth of healing.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

Once per GCD is a target cap of 1, and would make the healing basically useless when pulling wall to wall.

Why would that be a problem? You're literally still packing with 1,600p heal + 400p shield + 10% mit on that one single button assuming they nerf it down proccing once per GCD. That is still stronger than Equilibrium in potency per minute. Why do you need more? That's totally not a 'useless healing'. All that does is they would bring WAR's sustenance down close to PLD's degree, which if anybody knows anything at all, is still arguably excess on the hands of capable PLDs.

Today's BW is 4 Benedictions with 17s downtime. You don't need ANY other cooldowns to be used in that 8s uptime unlike PLD's Holy Shelltron within the same situation.

[rawker]

A good compromise that I can see is that aside from limiting BW to 1 pulse of heal per GCD, make so that using an AoE GCD does more healing than using a single-target GCD.

Compromise my dear spoiled children of Hydaelyn.

Honestly with how much healing PLD now has on the oGCD clemency should just be deleted

Oh no. please don't delete Clemency. Just nerf PLD self-healing by a bit. Clemency, as niche as it is, has its uses.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

A good compromise that I can see is that aside from limiting BW to 1 pulse of heal per GCD, make so that using an AoE GCD does more healing than using a single-target GCD.

How about changing the heal potency based on amount of targets hit? 1st target is 400p heal, every subsequent is 100? Would keep single target heals strong, keep AOE heals relevant and avoid the ambiguity with Primal Rend.

[Reimmi]

Once per GCD is a target cap of 1, and would make the healing basically useless when pulling wall to wall.

It would be the exact same as on single target, you just want to be immortal.
If drk can do wall to walls with much worse healing, war will be fine without the TGM console command.