After 1 (arguably 2) expansions what is square trying to achieve with WAR (and PLD)?

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

Attaching a partial refund to clemency would just create tank freecure

Tanks who think they should be pressing it at 40% HP or so with the excuse “yeah but I get a partial refund for it”

Honestly with how much healing PLD now has on the oGCD clemency should just be deleted

Don't see why we need to delete a button if for the niche it is for it's good and actually usable. Even if we don't give any refund effects, there is minimal reason to delete it when most of PLD's healing is only available at Lv84+.

If the argument is button bloat, we got other memes to look at like current iteration of Cover and Shield Bash. The latter is so utterly bad right now that various Paladin players just don't even put it on the hotbar outside of niche Deep Dungeon situations.

So yeah - Clemency can and should stay. I'd hate to make PLD any more same like the other tanks.

[rawker]

Don't see why we need to delete a button if for the niche it is for it's good and actually usable. Even if we don't give any refund effects, there is minimal reason to delete it when most of PLD's healing is only available at Lv84+.

If the argument is button bloat, we got other memes to look at like current iteration of Cover and Shield Bash. The latter is so utterly bad right now that various Paladin players just don't even put it on the hotbar outside of niche Deep Dungeon situations.

So yeah - Clemency can and should stay. I'd hate to make PLD any more same like the other tanks.

Shield Bash and Cover are still redeemable via Traits. I made a quick list of what I would like to see changed on PLD and have included those 2 you have mentioned.

- Fight or Flight is upgraded to Spirit's Within then is upgraded to Expiacion.
- Revert Goring Blade to be a DoT applying combo action from Riot Blade. Combo'ed Goring Blade also gives Divine Might and Sword Oath.
- Rework Circle of Scorn to be a combo action from Total Eclipse that does damage and applies a DoT. Combo'ed Circle of Scorn also gives Divine Might.
- bring back Shield Swipe as magic attacks are now blockable. Allow it to hold up to 3 charges via trait. Blocking an attack lowers the cooldown of Shield Swipe.
- Cover to get a trait where if the PLD receives a total of 50% of its max HP from redirected damage, the PLD gets healed for 1000 potency. Will only proc once per usage of Cover. Cover can also block redirected damage.
- remove damage from Intervene and add 25 oath gauge cost. Lower its cooldown to 5 seconds
- add a trait to Shield Bash where it will get its potency increased after using Intervene and removes the stun effect. Can combo into Riot Blade. Combo'ed Riot Blade from Shield Bash will also give 15 Oath Gauge, in addition to 1000MP.

How about changing the heal potency based on amount of targets hit? 1st target is 400p heal, every subsequent is 100? Would keep single target heals strong, keep AOE heals relevant and avoid the ambiguity with Primal Rend.

This is also good.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

Shield Bash and Cover are still redeemable via Traits. I made a quick list of what I would like to see changed on PLD and have included those 2 you have mentioned.

Oh yeah, I know and I'd prefer if they actually were useful. Personally "anything" that gives Cover defensive parity to Holy Sheltron in cost:effect ratio would be fine. I'd argue 1000 heal potency is a bit "meh". Unless you meant with "Cover can also block redirected damage" like how Bulwark has +100% block rate, because that would absolutely work.

As for Shield Bash/Intervene - I personally am not the biggest fan of taking damage off Intervene, but I like the interaction with Shield Bash and it would expand the Oath gauge usage. Making it an alternative combo starter to Fast Blade (analog to DRG's Raiden Thrust) definitely sounds like a cool interaction to make Intervene not be a needed part of your FoF window yet give it offensive effects with the enhanced Shield Bash. Definitely got me interested on that one.

[rawker]

Oh yeah, I know and I'd prefer if they actually were useful. Personally "anything" that gives Cover defensive parity to Holy Sheltron in cost:effect ratio would be fine. I'd argue 1000 heal potency is a bit "meh". Unless you meant with "Cover can also block redirected damage" like how Bulwark has +100% block rate, because that would absolutely work.

As for Shield Bash/Intervene - I personally am not the biggest fan of taking damage off Intervene, but I like the interaction with Shield Bash and it would expand the Oath gauge usage. Making it an alternative combo starter to Fast Blade (analog to DRG's Raiden Thrust) definitely sounds like a cool interaction to make Intervene not be a needed part of your FoF window yet give it offensive effects with the enhanced Shield Bash. Definitely got me interested on that one.

Precisely. Having recently leveled my BLM to 90, I can't help but marvel at how delicately designed BLM is. How traits upgrade an ability like removing the cast time from Foul to Paradox temporarily replacing Blizzard and Fire if you did your rotations, correctly. It's as if someone from the higher ups like the job and made it a point to designers to give ample attention in designing the job... jk

[rawker]

Oh yeah, I know and I'd prefer if they actually were useful. Personally "anything" that gives Cover defensive parity to Holy Sheltron in cost:effect ratio would be fine. I'd argue 1000 heal potency is a bit "meh". Unless you meant with "Cover can also block redirected damage" like how Bulwark has +100% block rate, because that would absolutely work.

As for Shield Bash/Intervene - I personally am not the biggest fan of taking damage off Intervene, but I like the interaction with Shield Bash and it would expand the Oath gauge usage. Making it an alternative combo starter to Fast Blade (analog to DRG's Raiden Thrust) definitely sounds like a cool interaction to make Intervene not be a needed part of your FoF window yet give it offensive effects with the enhanced Shield Bash. Definitely got me interested on that one.

What I had in mind when I thought of giving a 1000p heal from Cover is that it is designed to soften a tank buster you cover if you OT. If you are covering let's say a WHM in trash pulls so they can Holy peacefully, the 1000p heal not be as effective, that's when, as you have mentioned, pair it with Bulwark.

As for Intervene losing its damage component... let's just say the temptation to maximize damage output sometimes irks me to the point that how I wish I can freely use this ability for its utility more than using it to pad my personal dps. The interaction with Shield Bash is to open for more opportunities to open up any encounter.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

What I had in mind when I thought of giving a 1000p heal from Cover is that it is designed to soften a tank buster you cover if you OT. If you are covering let's say a WHM in trash pulls so they can Holy peacefully, the 1000p heal not be as effective, that's when, as you have mentioned, pair it with Bulwark.

As for Intervene losing its damage component... let's just say the temptation to maximize damage output sometimes irks me to the point that how I wish I can freely use this ability for its utility more than using it to pad my personal dps. The interaction with Shield Bash is to open for more opportunities to open up any encounter.

On the matter of Cover - as long as the gauge cost persists, it needs healing and/or mitigation equivalent to Holy Sheltron at minimum, because otherwise you are better off just using Intervention or Provoke + Holy Sheltron. As long as it is linked to Oath gauge it will be fighting in usage against Holy Sheltron and Intervention. As those cooldowns are potent, either parity needs to be made or the gauge cost needs to be removed.

Option 1: 120s CD + 50 gauge cost, an excogitation like heal as you suggest and at least 20% damage reduction OR alternatively +100% Block Rate on redirected damage only (Bulwark effect).
Option 2: 120s CD, gauge cost removed, heal as you suggested, no further damage reduction.