Frontlines sucks Ultra megathread

[Scintilla]

snip

I am fully aware of these '2 types of players', so I'm afraid your explanation does not sway me whatsoever.

To me, it is simple: Premade teams are just people who want an easy run of it. Players who want an easy win without having to go through the usual challenges of working as part of the larger alliance team, without having to employ any kind of strategic approach to the game, and without having to input much effort/thought at all. Minimum effort for maximum reward, but one which usually ruins the game for everyone else playing it (including the random players on their own alliance). It's not against the rules, but does push even more players into adopting that 'don't care' attitude and, in time, will turn more and more players away from FLs.

I play multiple games daily across my alts: does endless ice-licking frustrate me? Yes. Does the PvP avoidance of many objective-blind, 'let them fight' players annoy me at times? Yes. Do I strongly dislike the 'we lost, just end it fast' approach of some of those exp players? Yes.
But working as part of this wider team of a mixed range of motivations and abilities is part of the challenge of FLs. Remember: these players exist on every alliance. Everyone is working with such players while trying to push their team to first place, entering as premade is not avoidance of this as you claim - it's just players who find they can't / can't be bothered to win using the typical means and are out to look for an easier and faster option to get a decent win rate

[IDontPetLalas]

I am fully aware of these '2 types of players', so I'm afraid your explanation does not sway me whatsoever.

To me, it is simple: Premade teams are just people who want an easy run of it. Players who want an easy win without having to go through the usual challenges of working as part of the larger alliance team, without having to employ any kind of strategic approach to the game, and without having to input much effort/thought at all. Minimum effort for maximum reward, but one which usually ruins the game for everyone else playing it (including the random players on their own alliance). It's not against the rules, but does push even more players into adopting that 'don't care' attitude and, in time, will turn more and more players away from FLs.

I play multiple games daily across my alts: does endless ice-licking frustrate me? Yes. Does the PvP avoidance of many objective-blind, 'let them fight' players annoy me at times? Yes. Do I strongly dislike the 'we lost, just end it fast' approach of some of those exp players? Yes.
But working as part of this wider team of a mixed range of motivations and abilities is part of the challenge of FLs. Remember: these players exist on every alliance. Everyone is working with such players while trying to push their team to first place, entering as premade is not avoidance of this as you claim - it's just players who find they can't / can't be bothered to win using the typical means and are out to look for an easier and faster option to get a decent win rate

Basically "working as part of this wider team of a mixed range of motivations and abilities is part of the challenge of FLs. "

Disagree on why people join premades, those motivations may vary, in some cases it could be "just people who want an easy run of it" however while that could be true of some people, there are likely people who want to play with their friends, as well as people who want to play with at least a couple of people who they can rely upon - because that is enjoyable. There is a big difference between playing with even a couple of people who have spatial awareness, use their skills, etc. etc.

Also, it is allowed , it is one of the "typical" means. If, on the other hand, you're going to refer to queue-syncing that's another discussion.

[Mistress_Irika]

I play multiple games daily across my alts: does endless ice-licking frustrate me? Yes. Does the PvP avoidance of many objective-blind, 'let them fight' players annoy me at times? Yes. Do I strongly dislike the 'we lost, just end it fast' approach of some of those exp players? Yes.
But working as part of this wider team of a mixed range of motivations and abilities is part of the challenge of FLs. Remember: these players exist on every alliance. Everyone is working with such players while trying to push their team to first place, entering as premade is not avoidance of this as you claim - it's just players who find they can't / can't be bothered to win using the typical means and are out to look for an easier and faster option to get a decent win rate

I applaud you for having the strength to deal with this. I lost mines after 4 years of dealing with this, the final straw being medical kits existing in frontlines. Why should I be forced to only play those strategies as a soloist and be happy that I'm mainly getting 2nd as a result? Even with the current kits being more unforgiving to the side that is defending the optimal play for those that are not in a premade is hyper focusing objectives and avoiding fights as much as possible. It's hard to comprehend how that is fun in the first place. To each their own I guess. If this is suppose to be the typical way to play I don't want to be a part of it.

[Valence]

I doubt very much that it's a "utopia dream", nor that it takes a "Super Ai" given that the evaluating and rewarding performance based upon various types of contribution in large scale non-organized (ie non pre-made) combat has been around for at least 15 years that I'm aware of, at least more- so it pre-dates AI.

Which is not to say that those systems are perfect, and that whomever designs them doesn't factor in some types of contribution, or work-arounds that benefit specific roles- however it should be possible.

I'm not saying how it would be done - I would be surprised if it didn't factor roles into account - so no -why would kills matter equally across all jobs, I would also be surprised in modes with objectives, that points towards breaking ice- for example- wouldn't count. I've seen similar contribution used in other games.

However I'm not the game designer. I have no idea of how they would weight what type of contribution and how they would calculate in the game. Not my problem.

This kinda reminds me my producer when I worked in video games. "I have no idea how you're gonna do it, just do it, even though I got explained why it's pure fantasy. Not my problem."

[Sinstrel]

....

I play multiple games daily across my alts: does endless ice-licking frustrate me? Yes. Does the PvP avoidance of many objective-blind, 'let them fight' players annoy me at times? Yes. Do I strongly dislike the 'we lost, just end it fast' approach of some of those exp players? Yes.
But working as part of this wider team of a mixed range of motivations and abilities is part of the challenge of FLs. Remember: these players exist on every alliance. Everyone is working with such players while trying to push their team to first place, entering as premade is not avoidance of this as you claim - it's just players who find they can't / can't be bothered to win using the typical means and are out to look for an easier and faster option to get a decent win rate

Well that is great that you enjoy playing this way and find it personally challenging. As others have mentioned, there are some folks who find it more enjoyable playing with friends they can rely on and this is also considered to be gameplay as intended. Wouldn't it be unfair to mandate that everyone play the way that you find personally challenging and engaging?

Let's say that you and the players who agree with you do get your way, and that Yoshi P and the devs manage to create a perfect world where grouping and que-syncing are both completely impossible. What would you suggest happen to the solo Frontline Commander who can lead the alliance full of randoms to even better precision than the pre-mades that are currently ruining your experience?

This is how Frontlines are actually run on the JPN and OCE servers by the way... there are commanders who are so experienced at Frontline that they often do put NA pre-mades to shame with ragtag random players. I'd highly encourage you to Data Center travel and see this for yourself. If I had to guess, these forums would still be full of "Frontline Sucks Megathread" because people feel that marking, chat macro burst countdown timers, and sound effects are too unfair, and how these "commanders" are abusing the in-game features to stomp Frontline matches solo.

In my opinion, the rewards for Frontline Roulette need to be nerfed, and the size of the alliances should be brought down to 48 to accommodate the exodus of players who only queued up for a free reward. That way the concentration of players in your matches who are here to actually play the game mode becomes a bit higher. This would overall improve the quality of matches as now you'd have more capable teammates and "pre-mades" or solo commanders wouldn't be so devastating.

[IDontPetLalas]

This kinda reminds me my producer when I worked in video games. "I have no idea how you're gonna do it, just do it, even though I got explained why it's pure fantasy. Not my problem."

This kind of reminds me of some junior developers that I've worked with starting in their first jobs that insists something can't be done until we actually tell them someone on the team worked it / a colleague we know worked on it / we arrange a demo for them personally.

So in this case, as someone who has experienced a similar feature- I don't see why it would be "pure fantasy" to expect that I can request that it be evaluated. As the consumer it is not my role to design the solution , nor to evaluate the effort.

That is the game designer's role - and, since you don't know me at all - what I would expect is that if the request isn't feasible - then the game designer has someone at Square who can propose viable alternative(s) - since there isn't any discussion with the community prior to changes being implemented.

[Valence]

And you have working examples made by someone else to show for what you were specifically proposing this? You keep mentioning similar features, yet you completely fail to address what has been already shown to you as fundamentally problematic in your original idea. The only thing you were able to retort was "I don't care how you do it, just do it".

Your biggest fallacy here is to equate pointing out problems in the game to a developper and ask them to do something about it, and offering homebrewed solutions as a regular player and throwing a tantrum when told they wouldn't work by other regular players for multiple carefully laid out reasons.

[Mawlzy]

This kind of reminds me of some junior developers that I've worked with starting in their first jobs that insists something can't be done until we actually tell them someone on the team worked it / a colleague we know worked on it / we arrange a demo for them personally.

So in this case, as someone who has experienced a similar feature- I don't see why it would be "pure fantasy" to expect that I can request that it be evaluated. As the consumer it is not my role to design the solution , nor to evaluate the effort.

That is the game designer's role - and, since you don't know me at all - what I would expect is that if the request isn't feasible - then the game designer has someone at Square who can propose viable alternative(s) - since there isn't any discussion with the community prior to changes being implemented.

Seem to recall we have offered some suggestions on these boards in the similar context of how a match-making algorithm might work. Including an auto-boot feature for those AFKing. That'd also spare my blushes when my internet fails and I imagine me standing like a lemon on the field. More sophisticated algorithms judging contribution (possibly linked to rewards) are definitely more difficult, but if anyone is going to find them it's the people who have all the raw game stats. In other words, as you say, the game designer's role.

[OliviaLugria]

A skill gap which you insist on widening by running your premades.

Ya, I definitly didn't write an extensive guide over frontlines, act as a mentor in pvp discords, cordinate with the rest of my alliance, and give out any advice I can to new players and commanders who ask. XD

I'm pretty capped out on skill until the floor is raised. The resources are out there for anyone who seeks them out. I think it's better for the game to bring the floor up then try and squash the ceiling.

[Mawlzy]

Ya, I definitly didn't write an extensive guide over frontlines, act as a mentor in pvp discords, cordinate with the rest of my alliance, and give out any advice I can to new players and commanders who ask. XD

I'm pretty capped out on skill until the floor is raised. The resources are out there for anyone who seeks them out. I think it's better for the game to bring the floor up then try and squash the ceiling.

You miss my point, possibly deliberately. I hope I've adequately expressed my admiration of your skill on the field, your analysis of the mode, and your obvious enthusiasm for FL. However, your playstyle does not "bring the floor up." Quite the opposite.

By exploiting the fact the mode currently allows mixed queues, you vastly exaggerate the importance of 4 players in a 24-team alliance. I would hope it's apparent why that is bad for the game, but let me spell out two specific consequences:

1. It convinces casuals that whatever they do has no impact on the result (likely true), and in some cases (based on chat), further convinces them that the entire mode is flawed since it allows premades at all. Result: they join the ranks of those exerting no effort to play the game and the skill floor drops.

2. It drives away (at least some of) the most-skilled solo players, because they dislike playing with or against premades (Source: this thread). Result: the skill floor drops.

Your approach vastly increases your win-rate. I get that. I understand why someone would place that above any other considerations. But please, let's be clear about the consequences of your actions, rather than entertain these baseless assertions that you're magically improving the skill level in FL. It simply isn't true.

This situation will persist until mixed queues are removed.