Frontlines sucks Ultra megathread

[Scintilla]

snip

By all means, encourage the raising of the skill floor for players in PvP; whether it be through general PvP or FL-specific linkshells or large online groups in which new players can join and get advice from veteran PvP players, or through NN, or other guides.

But I am adamant that premades are not the way to do this. For the most part, I have seen it have very much the opposite effect, with such premade teams pushing players away from FLs and inciting a defeatist 'why bother? Just end it fast' approach which is already an existing issue.
Yes, take a prominent commanding role, do well within FLs, inspire others in your success, and emphasise their ability to achieve the same success with practice.

But to repeatedly crush them under heel? To utilise advantages such as voice chat and a coordinated premade team to obliterate opponents to the point that there is very, very little that they can do (aside from a full game of 2v1 or premade formation of their own)? To render your other alliance members meaningless, only there to fight over the scraps that remain?
They will ultimately come to the conclusion that FL is not for solo players and that they have no influence upon the outcome, unable to compete without a coordinated premade of their own. A few very competitive players might be driven by that desire to make life hard for the premade and force them into a loss, but many players will not. It will push a larger proportion into a defeatist attitude of 'who cares? They will win, we can't do anything. Let's just end it and get out'.
This isn't particularly helped by the toxic and arrogant approach that many premade teams seem to quickly develop, in which beginner players who may want to give a try/get practice at commanding etc. instantly get shut down with "I have a huge win rate, you don't, so shut up". That isn't promoting learning whatsoever, it's just arrogance.

All in all, yes, you can push for better. But push too hard and you're doing the opposite

[Mawlzy]

This isn't particularly helped by the toxic and arrogant approach that many premade teams seem to quickly develop, in which beginner players who may want to give a try/get practice at commanding etc. instantly get shut down with "I have a huge win rate, you don't, so shut up". That isn't promoting learning whatsoever, it's just arrogance.

I completely agree with your entire post, but since I've been accused of jabbing at Olivia (only when playing DRG, honest, bdum tsssk), I feel I should mention the following in the context of the quote above.

While I had to blacklist Olivia due to noise overload, before that she was mostly polite. I recall one occasion when she said something snotty and then one of her premade comrades chimed in with something worse, so I just left. But that was very much an exception.

[AriannaStormwake]

look i understand the reason/or reasons "why" people do what they do with the premades
coordinated/voice chat or whatnot work together do objectives win alot and having fun is good for everyone

but surely that wont cause/or have caused bigger issues for the pug/s more than what we already have seen
or just break queue sync to not work and you and me probably wont see those premade guys again(a big IF tho)

tho my issue is with premades existing in frontlines only(i dont play ranked)
that and some of the pugs who fight the premade(guys with lot of battle high 4 or 5 blue in one of my my games today) over the 2nd high score team(maelstrom/red)
half were busy dying to blue teams coordinated lb/stun stacking while red gets a free big ice
what happens in the end blue wins because my team chose to get lowscore third and engage them and not red(and not get the big ice to catch up)

[Divinemights]

After long 5 pages of debate and we basically still reach the conclusion that there is no resolution for this Ouroboros relationship.

[OliviaLugria]

If 97% of players dislike a playstyle, any game developer worth their salt will satisfy them and not a tiny minority who seem hell-bent on imposing their will upon others. Suggesting there is some objectively-correct playstyle through a bizarre analogy with celestial mechanics is pure sophistry.

As to the goal being winning, true but only in a sense. People play games to have fun. If winning involves playing in boring matches, I want no part of it. Playing solo on the team with a premade is boring. I'd far prefer to have a 33% win-rate for perpetuity and actually have something meaningful and enjoyable to do than get carried by a premade.

I was trying to explain how your argument uses an ad populum fallacy. Sorry if that did not come across. I'm not certain I would call it objectively-correct, but I could argue that it is the developers' intended style of play.

They may not have crafted each job for FL, but they're aware that:

-you can que as 1-4 players
-you can use the chat
-you can use macros
-you can mark enemies and allies
-you can place markers on the field
-you can open and lock you map
-etc etc

The developers, in theory, are designing the mode with the idea that these things are being used. If they weren't, you'd see a much different gamemode.

I do not remember who said it, but I agree with them. The developers should make what they want. Design with passion and not cater to masses. They have enkigh types od content for it to work. 97% of people don't do ultimates, so should the developers change the design? 90% don't do savage, should they change the design? What fraction of the player base is big on deep dungeons? Should they change it?

As for fun... I try to align my enjoyment with a game (and any activity really) from what it wants to achieve because they are not always trying to achieve "fun." I'm enjoying FL the most when I win because the goal is winning. I understand that's. It something everyone can do. I don't understand your reasoning because I find the interactions I have in FL very meaningful and enjoyable.

[Mawlzy]

The developers, in theory, are designing the mode with the idea that these things are being used. If they weren't, you'd see a much different gamemode.

I do not remember who said it, but I agree with them. The developers should make what they want. Design with passion and not cater to masses. They have enkigh types od content for it to work. 97% of people don't do ultimates, so should the developers change the design? 90% don't do savage, should they change the design? What fraction of the player base is big on deep dungeons? Should they change it?

Is not one purpose of these boards for players to express their opinions in the hope the developers might listen and "develop" the game to a more pleasing state?

97% of players don't do ultimates. So are you suggesting the 97% of players who don't want to play in a premade should just leave FL? Because otherwise your argument makes no sense. I'm all for niche content. More options are better. That's completely different from ignoring the vast majority of players who are currently playing a mode. We're not talking about the X% of the player base who don't play FL. We're talking about 97% of the current population that does play FL.

I've told you before I understand why you run a premade and advocate for others joining the cult. It is, indeed, the most effective way of boosting win-rate. I've outlined why I believe this works against the very goal you purport to be seeking in a higher skill floor. But that's not what this argument is about.

Nowhere is it written on stone tablets that FL must allow light parties. In principle, the queue could be solo only, light party, full party or complete 24-person alliance. The key debate here is which is the best option. We've reached different conclusions on that point, but since I can think of no way to determine the "correct" maximum party size, I don't think it's unreasonable to default to how people actually play the mode. Which is around 97% solo.

[OliviaLugria]

The developers should make what they\\'re passionate about, and use feedback to refine those ideas. I don\\'t feel like this is happening. I think they\\'re catering to people first and trying to design around that catering.

I feel the need to lightly remind you that your "97%" is a completly baseless number. Even if it were true, how many of those people\\'s opinions should actively be cared about? Should developers care about bots? Afkers? Feeders? People only there for exp? People with grayed out bars? If you took FL off the roulette it\\'d pop as often as rival wings does... basically never. I\\'m glad it\\'s there because it\\'s a mode I greatly enjoy.

You keep harping on about me suggesting to premade. This snippet is the only part that even mentions them:

"Frontlines allows you to que as a light party. I always recommend partying up with fellow pvpers.This ensures you have people that listen to calls, are fairly competent players, or at the very least are fun to play with. While you can always simply play what you want here are some sample team comps that synergize well with each other."

My guide is not for premades. It is for everyone. Anyone can put a macro on and ask for someone to play dark, reaper, or Dragoon. I am not suggesting premades do this strategy. I am suggesting everyone takes part. I personally recommend playing in a premade because a vast majority (let\\'s say 97%) can\\'t be bothered to tell others their LB is up, salted earth is off cd, a pinch is incoming, or a new node has spawned.

Make it solo of you want. I don\\'t really care, but it won\\'t fix your issue. Your issue, which has been stated multiple times, is that layering lbs is to effective. You don\\'t need a premade for this. I laid out how to do it. It doesn\\'t require pinpoint precision and God like apm and situational awareness. It requires at least 4 people willing to say something in chat. Making all those premades go solo is just changing premade parties every match with others.

[Mawlzy]

Make it solo of you want. I don\\'t really care, but it won\\'t fix your issue. Your issue, which has been stated multiple times, is that layering lbs is to effective. You don\\'t need a premade for this. I laid out how to do it. It doesn\\'t require pinpoint precision and God like apm and situational awareness. It requires at least 4 people willing to say something in chat. Making all those premades go solo is just changing premade parties every match with others.

Please don't tell me what "my issue" is. I'm pretty sure I'm going to know that better than you, particularly when your further rationalization is honestly laughable. Premades are different to solo players who coordinate. That's presumably why you play in a premade and have a 55% win-rate? When I play in games without a premade I have a far more enjoyable time that when a premade is present. That is my personal experience. Telling me I'm wrong is rude. Further transgressions of this nature and I'm going to start giving you fashion advice.

[OliviaLugria]

The power of a premade comes from the specific combination of jobs (as described explicitly in your own guide), and the fact that LB coordination in FL is devastating

Have I misquoted you? Apologies if so. I will reiterate that a solo que would do very little to fix good players coordinating and stomping bad players.

I don't think you could diss a maid outfit, but you're welcome to have a go at it.

[OliviaLugria]

For the other things, as I said, if I could get a good dark following up, a guard break that calls out there ready, and a dps who knows their burst then I wouldn't really need a team. I still would because they're genuinely nice people I like hanging out with, but I wouldn't need one to have a high chance of success.

I'm gonna also note that my calls drastically improved after meeting deneb, switched to Dark, put a marker on my head, and started getting everyone following me around.