Frontlines sucks Ultra megathread

[Stormfur]

No need for going into crazy solutions like that, they could already start experimenting by increasing tactical points scored for the 3rd team and decreasing them for the 1st team.

Could also try and increase tactical points earned when downing battle highs, proportionally to the rating (like +1 pt for BH1,... +5 points for BH5).

I like this a lot! SE, hire this man/woman!

[Aubrey_A]

you guys are talking in here as if square enix give a *** about what NA players think.

If not the official forums, where else would the community yell into the wind hoping to be heard?

The crazy part is, some of our suggestions are well thought out and sound. That being said, I don't think the English forum users (myself included) layout suggestions very well. And those that do, usually get torn apart by other forum users (at least in the pvp forums from what I have read) for a difference in thought.

This thread is laid out as a flame thread after all.

[Colt47]

The misconception with PvP is that it is a fair game when it isn't and any attempt to make it a fair game results in the physical capabilities of the player becoming the most important thing. that works for e-sports but not for general pvp games. CC doesn't have a roulette because it is an E-Sport arena and Frontlines has one because it is supposed to be RNG thanks to a 3 way fight. Even in games like call of duty they really don't prioritize player skill unless it is a special type of match where all the extra weird buffs and perks don't apply. To make Frontlines fun it has to have way more random events involved like having magitech armor just appear and people can take out the pilots to get in one, then just stomp the hell out of another team out of the blue. Or even have an ultima weapon just land and laser the entire field.

At the end of the day no matter how much practice some people will put in, they will never be able to match up evenly with others in pvp just by reflexes alone. If someone can easily deal with the tab target system and always pin point who they want, for example, and are very quick on reflexes, they will always have a leg up on someone that needs to be methodical. So ultimately that is why frontlines kind of sucks and will always suck no matter what they do to it.

[IDontPetLalas]

The misconception with PvP is that it is a fair game, when it is really isn't and any attempt to make it a fair game results in the physical capabilities of the player becoming the most important thing. that works for e-sports but not for general pvp games. CC doesn't have a roulette because it is an E-Sport arena and Frontlines has one because it is supposed to be RNG thanks to a 3 way fight. Even in games like call of duty they really don't prioritize player skill unless it is a special type of match where all the extra weird buffs and perks don't apply. To make Frontlines fun it has to have way more random events involved like having magitech armor just appear and people can take out the pilots to get in one, then just stomp the hell out of another team out of the blue. Or even have an ultima weapon just land and laser the entire field.

At the end of the day no matter how much practice some people will put in, they will never be able to match up evenly with others in pvp just by reflexes alone. If someone can easily deal with the tab target system and always pin point who they want, for example, and are very quick on reflexes, they will always have a leg up on someone that needs to be methodical. So ultimately that is why frontlines kind of sucks and will always suck no matter what they do to it.

I'm going to be somewhat blunt, and say that this post doesn't hold weight. You could make exactly the same argument in PvE, and say that someone who has faster reflexes is going to react quicker to specific sets of mechanics, and someone else who is just a bit slower is going to be held back in their progression, and may not even be able to do certain content- so it isn't "fair" to them. So it isn't a "FL sucks ' argument, at some level as in any content there will be skill levels, it has nothing to do with being "fair" , just as part of what factors into the equation is the player's system (e.g. latency) and any limitations (visual, physical), use of assists - I could go on.

By the way although I wouldn't want magitech introduced into FL(let it remain in RW) I would like the PVP team to bring back the map back that we lost in RW and in FL, although I do really like your idea of events in PvP. Maybe they could use events to try out new ideas.

[Colt47]

I'm going to be somewhat blunt, and say that this post doesn't hold weight. You could make exactly the same argument in PvE, and say that someone who has faster reflexes is going to react quicker to specific sets of mechanics, and someone else who is just a bit slower is going to be held back in their progression, and may not even be able to do certain content- so it isn't "fair" to them. So it isn't a "FL sucks ' argument, at some level as in any content there will be skill levels, it has nothing to do with being "fair" , just as part of what factors into the equation is the player's system (e.g. latency) and any limitations (visual, physical), use of assists - I could go on.

By the way although I wouldn't want magitech introduced into FL(let it remain in RW) I would like the PVP team to bring back the map back that we lost in RW and in FL, although I do really like your idea of events in PvP. Maybe they could use events to try out new ideas.

You might not agree with it but unfortunately that is the reality. Whether it is by the time available to someone, resources available, or physical disability, not everyone who participates in pvp is going to be able to match others. That's why so many PVP games have things that are like random handicaps. The only way someone can say what I say has no weight is that they literally have no knowledge of the outside world.

In regards specifically to Frontlines as a duty finder based PvP option, it has to be able to be appealing to run for just about anyone, otherwise it can't be a duty finder option. So unless they are going to suddenly strip all pvp from Duty Finder and find some magical way to get 72 people to directly queue for Frontlines, they got to have the game throw a lot of wrenches so that directly queued parties are on parity with random people who just don't know what they are doing. At least up to the point that the majority of people who are not queuing as a group are always ending up 3rd or 2nd place. Because as it is right now without DF the entire thing is dead and lacks any way to really get on its feet, not to mention utterly fails as a casual form of PvP that can let those who are not deeply interested in true FFXIV PvP get a crack at the rewards.

[IDontPetLalas]

You might not agree with it but unfortunately that is the reality. Whether it is by the time available to someone, resources available, or physical disability, not everyone who participates in pvp is going to be able to match others. That's why so many PVP games have things that are like random handicaps. The only way someone can say what I say has no weight is that they literally have no knowledge of the outside world.

In regards specifically to Frontlines as a duty finder based PvP option, it has to be able to be appealing to run for just about anyone, otherwise it can't be a duty finder option. So unless they are going to suddenly strip all pvp from Duty Finder and find some magical way to get 72 people to directly queue for Frontlines, they got to have the game throw a lot of wrenches so that directly queued parties are on parity with random people who just don't know what they are doing. At least up to the point that the majority of people who are not queuing as a group are always ending up 3rd or 2nd place. Because as it is right now without DF the entire thing is dead and lacks any way to really get on its feet, not to mention utterly fails as a casual form of PvP that can let those who are not deeply interested in true FFXIV PvP get a crack at the rewards.

I believe you misunderstood my reply, I may have phrased it poorly. I'm saying that your concept of "fairness" doesn't exist, in either PvP nor in PvE, due to the factors I mentioned, and more. It's not "tab-target" issue, it's not a FL specific issue- I happen to agree with that- but even if it was an e-sports system I'm saying that we don't start off on an equal basis due to those factors, which may be outside of the game's control.

In addition, "In regards specifically to Frontlines as a duty finder based PvP option, it has to be able to be appealing to run for just about anyone, otherwise it can't be a duty finder option. "- no, it has to be available to enough people so that the queues are acceptable. That's quite different.

You may find, in your opinion the "the mode is dead" . I wouldn't say the mode is dead, and while I have played PvP games that had direct queues for 48 or for players, I doubt it would work here. We also don't have large pre-made parties mixed random parties and these hypothetical "wrenches" of yours are handled in some other games by adjusting the contribution for pre-made party members (i.e. splitting), so that might be applicable here.

Finally, I don't know, my personal view is that people should work for rewards. In some cases rewards my take quite a while to achieve, however if it's something I enjoy doing, the time isn't an issue. If however it isn't enjoyable- it seems interminable. That may well apply to some people who don't like PvP and who want rewards. So I could understand that some of them might find that it takes an extremely long time, however while they are there they are still obtaining rewards for their time.

[Colt47]

I believe you misunderstood my reply, I may have phrased it poorly. I'm saying that your concept of "fairness" doesn't exist, in either PvP nor in PvE, due to the factors I mentioned, and more. It's not "tab-target" issue, it's not a FL specific issue- I happen to agree with that- but even if it was an e-sports system I'm saying that we don't start off on an equal basis due to those factors, which may be outside of the game's control.

In addition, "In regards specifically to Frontlines as a duty finder based PvP option, it has to be able to be appealing to run for just about anyone, otherwise it can't be a duty finder option. "- no, it has to be available to enough people so that the queues are acceptable. That's quite different.

You may find, in your opinion the "the mode is dead" . I wouldn't say the mode is dead, and while I have played PvP games that had direct queues for 48 or for players, I doubt it would work here. We also don't have large pre-made parties mixed random parties and these hypothetical "wrenches" of yours are handled in some other games by adjusting the contribution for pre-made party members (i.e. splitting), so that might be applicable here.

Finally, I don't know, my personal view is that people should work for rewards. In some cases rewards my take quite a while to achieve, however if it's something I enjoy doing, the time isn't an issue. If however it isn't enjoyable- it seems interminable. That may well apply to some people who don't like PvP and who want rewards. So I could understand that some of them might find that it takes an extremely long time, however while they are there they are still obtaining rewards for their time.

Oh okay so we basically agree there is no fairness, since that is exactly what I stated and eluded to in the post that you originally replied to.

[Mawlzy]

Oh okay so we basically agree there is no fairness, since that is exactly what I stated and eluded to in the post that you originally replied to.

Really not following your arguments at all here. Frontlines includes RNG, both in terms of spawns and team assignment. Sometimes your team-mates won't be very good. Sometimes your team will play the best only to lose to a bad late spawn. All this is perfectly fair. The only area in which one might argue there is a lack of fairness is when that randomness is subverted by premades and Q-synching.

And while there's a general sentiment here that Frontlines has problems, in terms of participation it is incredibly successful. Sub-5min queues for at least 12 hours a day, 7 days a week. (Aether. I understand that isn't universal.)

[Colt47]

Really not following your arguments at all here. Frontlines includes RNG, both in terms of spawns and team assignment. Sometimes your team-mates won't be very good. Sometimes your team will play the best only to lose to a bad late spawn. All this is perfectly fair. The only area in which one might argue there is a lack of fairness is when that randomness is subverted by premades and Q-synching.

And while there's a general sentiment here that Frontlines has problems, in terms of participation it is incredibly successful. Sub-5min queues for at least 12 hours a day, 7 days a week. (Aether. I understand that isn't universal.)

What you aren't getting is that developers understand that fairness doesn't exist and that is why they put in things like the sandtrap and other obstacles in CC. It is the same thing as what they do in Call of Duty with the kill streaks. Technically, the latter does a much better job thanks to fast time to kill plus the kill streaks, but it evens the odds as the skill floor is much higher. It also tends to make the games less repetitious. When Time to Kill increases then it becomes more skill intensive since there is more time to do counter play.

[Mawlzy]

What you aren't getting is that developers understand that fairness doesn't exist and that is why they put in things like the sandtrap and other obstacles in CC. It is the same thing as what they do in Call of Duty with the kill streaks. Technically, the latter does a much better job thanks to fast time to kill plus the kill streaks, but it evens the odds as the skill floor is much higher. It also tends to make the games less repetitious. When Time to Kill increases then it becomes more skill intensive since there is more time to do counter play.

I suspect you're using a non-standard meaning of the word "fairness."