These Relics Aren't Relicing

[Erzaa]

Alright, fair enough. I'll concede getting the required Aetherpool takes time, if the players hadn't already ran PoTD by the time they got to Bozja.

Still, getting to 150 isn't that hard with high Aetherpool, I can do so consistently, and believe me, I'm not a good player.

It does take around 8 hours, but you'd also get maybe a few drops on the way to 100 too. Realistically, it took me all of 4 days, during evening hours after work, to get the required drops, and I needed 30, as I was doing two relics at once. That's not a heavy grind. HoH took me over a week for comparison.

But yes, assuming the player never bothered with PoTD beforehand, I can understand in such a case it would become a mountain to climb.

Edit: Maybe they could add a few dungeons to farm instead, same as the HoH step.

[Kaurhz]

Alright, fair enough. I'll concede getting the required Aetherpool takes time, if the players hadn't already ran PoTD by the time they got to Bozja.

Still, getting to 150 isn't that hard with high Aetherpool, I can do so consistently, and believe me, I'm not a good player.

It does take around 8 hours, but you'd also get maybe a few drops on the way to 100 too. Realistically, it took me all of 4 days, during evening hours after work, to get the required drops, and I needed 30, as I was doing two relics at once. That's not a heavy grind. HoH took me over a week for comparison.

But yes, assuming the player never bothered with PoTD beforehand, I can understand in such a case it would become a mountain to climb.

Edit: Maybe they could add a few dungeons to farm instead, same as the HoH step.

The concern is more just getting the Aetherpool in the first place. Putting it as a guaranteed drop from PotD just encourages people to actually participate in the content. It's utterly disgusting doing Palace these days from absolute scratch for the general player, regardless of the level you actually decide to start doing PotD. The point is you attach guaranteed drop rate to incentivize people actually doing the content more, and if so desired you could have it wherein, Floor 51-60 is guaranteed 1, and then 2 for completing floors 91-100, with 1 per each set of floors 100+. Doing the floors is easy until 170+, but that isn't the point, nor is that the issue, it's the required effort to get to the point where you can do that which needs to be factored in.

It's better to have people doing the content, even if the goal is slightly watered-down to the "Lul just gimme an artefact in 10 minutes plz", as you say - Especially when the relic is from an older expansion in the first place - Than it is to not having them do it at all, and by this I am referring to the number of people that engage with PotD where general players are most likely to also see benefits from approaching it like this.

As it stands, I would argue from their approach to relics, this is one of the very few where it has gone backwards. e.g., they've typically nerfed relics to compensate for the fact they won't be the relevant content, even if people still do engage with them. In this case, they've left it completely unchanged, and has only resulted in it being more tedious than it previously was.

Besides, doing it this way has cascaded benefits for other groups of players as opposed to just those doing the relic itself. Sorry for all the edits, I could only quickly write down notes, and edit them along the way.

[Erzaa]

The concern is more just getting the Aetherpool in the first place.

Yes I understand this argument. Getting Aetherpool is a long grind.

Putting it as a guaranteed drop from PotD just encourages people to actually participate in the content. It's utterly disgusting doing Palace these days from absolute scratch for the general player, regardless of the level you actually decide to start doing PotD.

I disagree with this. PotD is optional content for players who enjoy it. It's completely soloable from scratch, albeit slower. With a duo, it becomes a cinch. If people want to engage with the content, it's there to engage with.

The point is you attach guaranteed drop rate to incentivize people actually doing the content more, and if so desired you could have it wherein, Floor 51-60 is guaranteed 1, and then 2 for completing floors 91-100, with 1 per each set of floors 100+. Doing the floors is easy until 170+, but that isn't the point, nor is that the issue, it's the required effort to get to the point where you can do that which needs to be factored in.

It's better to have people doing the content, even if the goal is slightly watered-down to the "Lul just gimme an artefact in 10 minutes plz", as you say - Especially when the relic is from an older expansion in the first place - Than it is to not having them do it at all, and by this I am referring to the number of people that engage with PotD where general players are most likely to also see benefits from approaching it like this.

So, let me see if I understand this right... A player gets Aetherpool at around +50/+50 or so, 51-60 becomes a joke, then you give these players a guaranteed 1 drop each time they run those floors, they'll complete the farm for the 15 artifacts in a few hours and then? What's their incentive to continue engaging with it afterwards?

This isn't about being snarky with

"Lul just gimme an artefact in 10 minutes plz"

It's what's going to happen. If a player wants to engage with PotD while farming artifacts, actually climbing the floors will net them the artifacts and a very good rate.

As it stands, I would argue from their approach to relics, this is one of the very few where it has gone backwards. e.g., they've typically nerfed relics to compensate for the fact they won't be the relevant content, even if people still do engage with them. In this case, they've left it completely unchanged, and has only resulted in it being more tedious than it previously was.

And I'm confused here, is grinding good or not good? According to all these forum posts, grinding for causality tomes is bad, because they're given so readily, making the relic too easy to get. But now, the argument is that grinding PotD, the way it was intended, to get the relic step done is tedious?

If you started to farm an Endwalker relic today, with 0 causality tomes, it would take about 2 days to get enough causality tomes to get your first stage. If you started the PotD farm today for 15 artifacts (assuming maxed Aetherpool), it would take about 2 days (maybe even less), to complete this step. Seems like they're on par as to how long they take. So what's the reasoning for making the Endwalker relics harder to get, but then make the Bozja relics easier to get?

they've typically nerfed relics to compensate for the fact they won't be the relevant content

Have they though? I mean, you could make that argument for ARR and HW maybe, but is SB really nerfed? Eureka is still a massive grind, arguably much longer than Bozja.

And, as it stands, they could just add dungeons to farm for artifacts, in addition to PotD, so why not just do that? If your point is that players should engage with PotD, then why are there dungeons attached as well as HoH to the next step? Seems like, that would take away engagement from HoH to me. So are you arguing that there shouldn't be any dungeons included as options in the HoH step?

[Kaurhz]

Yes I understand this argument. Getting Aetherpool is a long grind.
I disagree with this. PotD is optional content for players who enjoy it. It's completely soloable from scratch, albeit slower. With a duo, it becomes a cinch. If people want to engage with the content, it's there to engage with.

Yes it is this does not, however, mean that you neglect trying to funnel some or a lot of players into doing or trying the content. Personally, if it takes upwards an hour to get into a queue with the high probability of needing to cycle a given set of floors multiple times because the game elected to not give sufficient amount of Aetherpool. – Then I see that as somewhat of an issue. If people cannot get past that initial hurdle of farming Aetherpool without essentially being told to do it all solo, then you’re likely to experience players that may like the content, otherwise dropping it because of frankly poor support for it.

So, let me see if I understand this right... A player gets Aetherpool at around +50/+50 or so, 51-60 becomes a joke, then you give these players a guaranteed 1 drop each time they run those floors, they'll complete the farm for the 15 artifacts in a few hours and then? What's their incentive to continue engaging with it afterwards?

This I would actually concede on, however I think having it guaranteed at 50, then guaranteed 2 at 100, with a further 1 per set of ten floors for 100+ would be an appropriate accommodation in this case.
You also need to consider the simple fact there are always people doing relics. Over a decade later, tonnes of people still do ARR relics. Over 5 years later – People are still doing Eureka relics, and arguably has some of the best shelf life of any given content.

And I'm confused here, is grinding good or not good? According to all these forum posts, grinding for causality tomes is bad, because they're given so readily, making the relic too easy to get. But now, the argument is that grinding PotD, the way it was intended, to get the relic step done is tedious?

If you started to farm an Endwalker relic today, with 0 causality tomes, it would take about 2 days to get enough causality tomes to get your first stage. If you started the PotD farm today for 15 artifacts (assuming maxed Aetherpool), it would take about 2 days (maybe even less), to complete this step. Seems like they're on par as to how long they take. So what's the reasoning for making the Endwalker relics harder to get, but then make the Bozja relics easier to get?

Yes, it is bad, and they are given it bountifully, and even more so under the premise that people were already doing the content which offers it anyway. My point was that relative to how the content was, it is more tedious to progress that given step. – The emphasis on more.

Your calculation wrests under the expectation that the only content people are engaging with in order to progress the relic is roulettes. If you are doing hunts, and if you are engaging with hunts even semi-actively then you progress an entire relic in 2 days, not just 1 step, and this is from scratch. On the other hand I could do a quick hunt calculation. Let's say you do hunts, there's 12 hunts, you have 8 servers, and each hunt gives 20 tomes, that's 240 per 12 hunts, which is 1 server. Multiply this across 8 servers, you then have 1920 tomes for a complete set of trains. Each A-Rank takes 4-6 hours to respawn, give a tiny bit of leeway for the train to be scouted. That's already 1920, and this doesn't factor in ARR/HW morning trains, or the occasional SB and ShB trains which give a further up-to 120, in between downtimes you can also do your roulettes. They aren't even remotely on par LOL

The reason why Endwalker relics should be harder to get, but the Bozjan relics easier? Well I don’t know – Maybe because for all intents and purposes outside of glamour, the Bozjan relic is near enough entirely irrelevant. Endwalker on the other hand is the current best weapon. Granted, it is the contrary in that Endwalker relics take less time to get than you apparently took to progress 1 step, and that is just a fact.

Have they though? I mean, you could make that argument for ARR and HW maybe, but is SB really nerfed? Eureka is still a massive grind, arguably much longer than Bozja.

Nah you an unequivocally say they all have been nerfed. Eureka takes maybe 4 days to progress a relic from start to finish, and arguably currently I would say it is still less of a grind than Bozjan. Why HW and SB? Well..
HW to my knowledge went from having, what? 3 Luminary Crystals per zone, in addition to the abysmal drop rate – To only needing I believe 1 per zone, on top of a significantly increased drop rate.
The fact all of it is dungeons, trials, etc., means it benefitted indirectly from undersized. Previously, it was what? Farm A1N, and Brayflox on bonus… Now you just farm A5S or A9S, and the game basically hands out light like candy, because you know… Level 60 isn’t exactly threatening to Level 90s

SB? The relics for Pagos were nerfed into oblivion. Vitiated light increased dramatically, and I mean dramatically. Then the crystal yield was doubled on those in something like 4.57, then you had the nerfs to the required level to attune to specific aetherytes across the zones. This made traversing a lot easier, and then the echo buff just overall made it significantly easier on top of how it was. Pazuzu would take people out in troves, now he’s barely a threat, as are the monsters needed to spawn him, and anyone else in Eureka. I don’t have a strong recollection of Anemos, Pyros, nor Hydatos aside from those.

So, absolutely yes HW and SB were absolutely, unequivocally, definitively nerfed.

As for the final point, like I said, because it incentivises more people to actually do PotD, which would probably help more people to actually like it since queues won’t be punishing, or because they wouldn’t need to go through the ordeal of soloing the place on 0AP, and 0 of the tradeable potions. All I did was specify a justification as to why I thought it would be a good idea for that particular step, and beneficial to the overall player base. The subsequent and final step to the relic is an entirely different discussion which doesn’t suffer the same problem as the Augmented Law’s Order weapon, IMO. But if you want to go there, then yes, they could add dungeons, but again, I just think it’s killing more birds with 1 stone to increase or guaranteed the rate on certain floors. The only saving grace with the resistance relics is much of the grind on the other stages is just a 1-time step thing.

[Erzaa]

Yes it is this does not, however, mean that you neglect trying to funnel some or a lot of players into doing or trying the content. Personally, if it takes upwards an hour to get into a queue with the high probability of needing to cycle a given set of floors multiple times because the game elected to not give sufficient amount of Aetherpool. – Then I see that as somewhat of an issue. If people cannot get past that initial hurdle of farming Aetherpool without essentially being told to do it all solo, then you’re likely to experience players that may like the content, otherwise dropping it because of frankly poor support for it.

Except, by design the game is telling you it doesn't want to funnel you into PoTD. It wants you to run DSR, that's why they drop a guaranteed 3 instead of 1. PotD is the alternative for players who don't particularly enjoy raiding or relying on others.

You also need to consider the simple fact there are always people doing relics. Over a decade later, tonnes of people still do ARR relics. Over 5 years later – People are still doing Eureka relics, and arguably has some of the best shelf life of any given content.

Yes, it is bad, and they are given it bountifully, and even more so under the premise that people were already doing the content which offers it anyway. My point was that relative to how the content was, it is more tedious to progress that given step. – The emphasis on more.

I never said otherwise. I've done multiple of them, years after they were relevant, and they're all mostly tedious, even ARR and HW which can be done entirely solo now. PotD isn't that bad, IF you run it as intended.

Your calculation wrests under the expectation that the only content people are engaging with in order to progress the relic is roulettes. If you are doing hunts, and if you are engaging with hunts even semi-actively then you progress an entire relic in 2 days, not just 1 step, and this is from scratch. On the other hand I could do a quick hunt calculation. Let's say you do hunts, there's 12 hunts, you have 8 servers, and each hunt gives 20 tomes, that's 240 per 12 hunts, which is 1 server. Multiply this across 8 servers, you then have 1920 tomes for a complete set of trains. Each A-Rank takes 4-6 hours to respawn, give a tiny bit of leeway for the train to be scouted. That's already 1920, and this doesn't factor in ARR/HW morning trains, or the occasional SB and ShB trains which give a further up-to 120, in between downtimes you can also do your roulettes. They aren't even remotely on par LOL

No, you're speaking entirely hypothetically here. My arguments rely on realism. Most people don't have the time to farm 1920 causality tomes in a single day. We work and we have other life responsibilities. Real life doesn't work that way. Did you miss the part where I said I did 2 relics at the same time, and it took me 4 days, farming after work hours? They're very much on par. You could take a Saturday morning and work through a 10 hour sitting, and rng willing, you'd have your 15 artifacts. Just because something is theoretically possible, doesn't make it realistic.

The reason why Endwalker relics should be harder to get, but the Bozjan relics easier? Well I don’t know – Maybe because for all intents and purposes outside of glamour, the Bozjan relic is near enough entirely irrelevant. Endwalker on the other hand is the current best weapon. Granted, it is the contrary in that Endwalker relics take less time to get than you apparently took to progress 1 step, and that is just a fact.

Then I guess I shouldn't have run Nier 100+ times to get the glamour items from there either. They're no longer relevant. They should drop one for every player, every run. If something's popular, and the person wants it bad enough, they'll suffer through the tedium.

Nah you an unequivocally say they all have been nerfed. Eureka takes maybe 4 days to progress a relic from start to finish, and arguably currently I would say it is still less of a grind than Bozjan. Why HW and SB? Well..
HW to my knowledge went from having, what? 3 Luminary Crystals per zone, in addition to the abysmal drop rate – To only needing I believe 1 per zone, on top of a significantly increased drop rate.
The fact all of it is dungeons, trials, etc., means it benefitted indirectly from undersized. Previously, it was what? Farm A1N, and Brayflox on bonus… Now you just farm A5S or A9S, and the game basically hands out light like candy, because you know… Level 60 isn’t exactly threatening to Level 90s

SB? The relics for Pagos were nerfed into oblivion. Vitiated light increased dramatically, and I mean dramatically. Then the crystal yield was doubled on those in something like 4.57, then you had the nerfs to the required level to attune to specific aetherytes across the zones. This made traversing a lot easier, and then the echo buff just overall made it significantly easier on top of how it was. Pazuzu would take people out in troves, now he’s barely a threat, as are the monsters needed to spawn him, and anyone else in Eureka. I don’t have a strong recollection of Anemos, Pyros, nor Hydatos aside from those.

So, absolutely yes HW and SB were absolutely, unequivocally, definitively nerfed.

Again, a fallacious argument. It's still a long tedious grind, far more than just running PotD for 2 days. I've not met a single person who's completed their first Eureka start to finish in 4 days, leveling and a relic. https://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/wiki/Eurekan_Weapons. Take a look at the amounts of crystals you need per each area, that's not even accounting for the time required for a new player to level in Eureka, just the weapons. By your argument, I could just say it's possible to hit rank 20 on Island Sanctuary in a few days if I spent 16 hours a day gathering, but it isn't realistic or practical.

As for the final point, like I said, because it incentivises more people to actually do PotD, which would probably help more people to actually like it since queues won’t be punishing, or because they wouldn’t need to go through the ordeal of soloing the place on 0AP, and 0 of the tradeable potions. All I did was specify a justification as to why I thought it would be a good idea for that particular step, and beneficial to the overall player base. The subsequent and final step to the relic is an entirely different discussion which doesn’t suffer the same problem as the Augmented Law’s Order weapon, IMO. But if you want to go there, then yes, they could add dungeons, but again, I just think it’s killing more birds with 1 stone to increase or guaranteed the rate on certain floors. The only saving grace with the resistance relics is much of the grind on the other stages is just a 1-time step thing.

It's very much a relevant argument. Their drop rates are about on par with each other. And the step with HoH includes dungeons which disincentivises running HoH, which means the queues you speak of will still be non-existent. Players will always flock to what's fastest. The only reason anyone complains about PotD during that step is because they don't want to climb the floors and want an easy and quick method. The one-time steps aren't relevant here, they're designed to be grindy for the duration of the expansion. The subsequent weapons are all tedious but not in any terrible way, PotD drop rate is decent, just run the floors from 1-150 normally and you'll be done in no time. Running 51-60, you're basically gambling against the odds and complaining you didn't win the lottery. If they increase the drop rate fine, if they add dungeons fine. And I'm not saying it would helpful or not helpful. I personally don't care if they increased the drop rate or not. But the argument that PotD is somehow tedious, when players are deliberately ignoring the way it was intended to be run, that's a player problem.

[Kaurhz]

snip

Which wouldn't be a problem if DRN didn't rely almost entirely on PF and Discord to function. Unironically the guide stats "Sometimes discords organize runs which is the ideal method" to paraphrase. It also wouldn't be a problem if many of the methods weren't temporal, e.g., "Just add causality tomes into DRN" etc., - With the state I feel that DRN is, generally.. I think it's better to adjust that. Then again, if I am to put my opinion again, I would go as far to say doing DRN as they did wasn't great.

See this is where the problem is - "Run it as intended" - Lies under the assumption that queue times be fairly reasonable for people to get to the stage where they can do it in the first place, e.g., the upfront farming and actual unlocking needed, and my second proposed method doesn't detract from 'running it as intended' - The only differential is that people would be awarded on Floors 50, 100 as a guarantee, to combat people just spamming 51-60, and then 1 per subsequent set - People would still be climbing those floors, whether it is 1-50, or 51-100, they would still be climbing - Which I assume you refer to as your - 'intended method'. Since in this case it would still be better to get your guarantees at 50, and 100, and then continue to push for 101+, than it would to continually reset your floors, and with the number of Artefacts needed, and with people always doing relics, it shouldn't be an issue.

What do you mean, most people don't have time, trains are running practically 24/7 across SB, ShB, and EW alone, not factoring in everything you can do between. Someone making the most of their time absolutely would be finishing a relic just as quick as you are with the first step. Farming 3,000 tomes in a day window is a perfectly reasonable, even just for evening players. Whether you don't want to do that is your prerogative. But it is more than realistic.

I said irrelevant outside of glamour, inferring that they are still relevant to do for glamour purposes. I just highlighted the fact that the relic ends up being the most powerful weapon for the expansion, which is why I think it should be that a newer relic should naturally take longer than an older relic due to the benefits they still have.

I could argue in the case because most people aren't actually maximizing what Eureka offers. Doing your challenge log takes a couple of hours which naturally gets you to Rank 13, by this point you have enough Magicite to start antagonizing monsters +2 or +3 of your level which nets you a monumental amount of EXP, this can be done between NMs, so the player is making the most out of doing level-relevant NMs as well. I'm sorry but if you are rank 5 strutting your way to Short Serket 2, then you are wasting your time, objectively you are wasting your time. - Which most people like to do - Similarly, if you are a level 4 partying with level 18 players, then you are losing out on a monumental amount of EXP. - This is because much like many proposals being made, people will always elect the route of least resistance - In this case just doing NMs, regardless of whether you would actually benefit from how much time it took you just sitting there. - If it don't give you crystals, it probably ain't worth your time in the first place.

and yes, Anemos for example, let's look at this, shall we? 1200 Protean Crystals which you can get from Anemos Crystals typically on a 1:1-5:1 ratio, and 3 feathers. Levelling naturally in there and spending an additional few hours helping to spawn NMs afterwards quite easily nets you the needed amount.

Pagos is the same, if all you're doing there is NMs then you aren't even trying to get your Vitiated Crystals which is near enough half the job. These you can get passively whilst levelling, if you actually levelled the way the game intended - By you know? Killing monsters, then this also wouldn't be a problem. If you are level 20, fighting level 20 mobs then you are just hampering yourself. Arguably you could enter here at Rank 17 if you wanted the bridge the gap between 17-19 to get the step up on getting Pazuzu Feathers. Fighting monsters in Pagos as a level 17 by the entrance will give you a monstrous amount of EXP.

If players aren't willing to level the way Eureka intended then that is a player problem. Eureka hands you levels on a silver platter if you try, just as it hands you vitiated crystals if you try - As a little fact back when completing all Eureka weapons, I found myself in excess of around 5,000 Frosted Crystals, 3,400 of which are still in my inventory, and this would have been higher if I didn't eventually deviate to farm light almost exclusively with my time. To this day I think of how much time this wasted -- Point being anyway, that people waste their time with Eureka which is why it takes people so long. The crystals look like it's a lot, but it really isn't when normal monsters award Protean Crystals anyway, and moreso especially when each NM throws Crystals at you like no tomorrow. With the exception of Hydatos.

The reason I say it is tedious is because most people just don't have that initial start up with the Aetherpool - If you don't, you're really in a rough spot in the first place, as you need to farm the AP itself, and with the floors 1-41, and 61-91 being as barren as they are it makes it a difficult entry point for newer players, or players that just haven't done it, to get to the stage where they can reliably farm the timeworn artefacts in the first place. - This was the biggest justification as to why reworking the timeworn drops should be guaranteed for certain floors (revised).

I feel like this is a massive back and fourth at any rate, so I probably won't reply further, as there's no real point to do so, when there's a fundamental disagreement