These Relics Aren't Relicing

[Kaurhz]

On the note of DR, as I vaguely saw this discussed -- I'm not entirely sure it's the best solution to nerf DR in the long run - Perhaps adjusting the scaling of it when there are only 2-4 players to help facilitate players that are doing the content for the first time. Beyond that...

I think increasing the rewards in PotD or adding additional places where you can get the items required for the relic. - Just making the yield guaranteed for the Timeworn artefact from PotD; that alone would go a long way, and would probably produce the best results.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

On the note of DR, as I vaguely saw this discussed -- I'm not entirely sure it's the best solution to nerf DR in the long run - Perhaps adjusting the scaling of it when there are only 2-4 players to help facilitate players that are doing the content for the first time. Beyond that...

I think increasing the rewards in PotD or adding additional places where you can get the items required for the relic. - Just making the yield guaranteed for the Timeworn artefact from PotD; that alone would go a long way, and would probably produce the best results.

I was saying to my friend in other day about adding good amount of Causality into DRN: revitalize both manderville (lol) and DRN at the same time.

But ofc that's just a band aid.

[Erzaa]

I think increasing the rewards in PotD or adding additional places where you can get the items required for the relic. - Just making the yield guaranteed for the Timeworn artefact from PotD; that alone would go a long way, and would probably produce the best results.

There's nothing wrong with the PoTD drop rate. The reason people complain about it, is because they're not willing to climb the floors and want it dropped from 51-60, so they can farm it in 10 minutes. From floor 100+ you'll get an artifact almost every 10 floors. There's 200 floors, and you can get to 150 easily, even solo.

An increase to the HoH floors step would be better, because the floors where the drop is almost guaranteed, are fewer and you're likely to die faster. But most people don't really complain there, because there's dungeons they can do instead.

[Tint]

There's nothing wrong with the PoTD drop rate. The reason people complain about it, is because they're not willing to climb the floors and want it dropped from 51-60, so they can farm it in 10 minutes. From floor 100+ you'll get an artifact almost every 10 floors. There's 200 floors, and you can get to 150 easily, even solo.

It's really difficult to find a party for the later floors. Since you have to start at 51 it takes easily 8 hours to get there (floor 150+). And since you can't replace any player you can't continue when one person is not showing up the next day - and there is always one who is not showing up. So realistically you have to do it in one session - but who has the time for that?

Doing it solo is also not easily done. It takes skill and knowledge.

Plus before you can even start (group or solo) you have to farm your weapon and armor upgrades which also takes a while.

[Erzaa]

Alright, fair enough. I'll concede getting the required Aetherpool takes time, if the players hadn't already ran PoTD by the time they got to Bozja.

Still, getting to 150 isn't that hard with high Aetherpool, I can do so consistently, and believe me, I'm not a good player.

It does take around 8 hours, but you'd also get maybe a few drops on the way to 100 too. Realistically, it took me all of 4 days, during evening hours after work, to get the required drops, and I needed 30, as I was doing two relics at once. That's not a heavy grind. HoH took me over a week for comparison.

But yes, assuming the player never bothered with PoTD beforehand, I can understand in such a case it would become a mountain to climb.

Edit: Maybe they could add a few dungeons to farm instead, same as the HoH step.

[Kaurhz]

Alright, fair enough. I'll concede getting the required Aetherpool takes time, if the players hadn't already ran PoTD by the time they got to Bozja.

Still, getting to 150 isn't that hard with high Aetherpool, I can do so consistently, and believe me, I'm not a good player.

It does take around 8 hours, but you'd also get maybe a few drops on the way to 100 too. Realistically, it took me all of 4 days, during evening hours after work, to get the required drops, and I needed 30, as I was doing two relics at once. That's not a heavy grind. HoH took me over a week for comparison.

But yes, assuming the player never bothered with PoTD beforehand, I can understand in such a case it would become a mountain to climb.

Edit: Maybe they could add a few dungeons to farm instead, same as the HoH step.

The concern is more just getting the Aetherpool in the first place. Putting it as a guaranteed drop from PotD just encourages people to actually participate in the content. It's utterly disgusting doing Palace these days from absolute scratch for the general player, regardless of the level you actually decide to start doing PotD. The point is you attach guaranteed drop rate to incentivize people actually doing the content more, and if so desired you could have it wherein, Floor 51-60 is guaranteed 1, and then 2 for completing floors 91-100, with 1 per each set of floors 100+. Doing the floors is easy until 170+, but that isn't the point, nor is that the issue, it's the required effort to get to the point where you can do that which needs to be factored in.

It's better to have people doing the content, even if the goal is slightly watered-down to the "Lul just gimme an artefact in 10 minutes plz", as you say - Especially when the relic is from an older expansion in the first place - Than it is to not having them do it at all, and by this I am referring to the number of people that engage with PotD where general players are most likely to also see benefits from approaching it like this.

As it stands, I would argue from their approach to relics, this is one of the very few where it has gone backwards. e.g., they've typically nerfed relics to compensate for the fact they won't be the relevant content, even if people still do engage with them. In this case, they've left it completely unchanged, and has only resulted in it being more tedious than it previously was.

Besides, doing it this way has cascaded benefits for other groups of players as opposed to just those doing the relic itself. Sorry for all the edits, I could only quickly write down notes, and edit them along the way.

[Erzaa]

The concern is more just getting the Aetherpool in the first place.

Yes I understand this argument. Getting Aetherpool is a long grind.

Putting it as a guaranteed drop from PotD just encourages people to actually participate in the content. It's utterly disgusting doing Palace these days from absolute scratch for the general player, regardless of the level you actually decide to start doing PotD.

I disagree with this. PotD is optional content for players who enjoy it. It's completely soloable from scratch, albeit slower. With a duo, it becomes a cinch. If people want to engage with the content, it's there to engage with.

The point is you attach guaranteed drop rate to incentivize people actually doing the content more, and if so desired you could have it wherein, Floor 51-60 is guaranteed 1, and then 2 for completing floors 91-100, with 1 per each set of floors 100+. Doing the floors is easy until 170+, but that isn't the point, nor is that the issue, it's the required effort to get to the point where you can do that which needs to be factored in.

It's better to have people doing the content, even if the goal is slightly watered-down to the "Lul just gimme an artefact in 10 minutes plz", as you say - Especially when the relic is from an older expansion in the first place - Than it is to not having them do it at all, and by this I am referring to the number of people that engage with PotD where general players are most likely to also see benefits from approaching it like this.

So, let me see if I understand this right... A player gets Aetherpool at around +50/+50 or so, 51-60 becomes a joke, then you give these players a guaranteed 1 drop each time they run those floors, they'll complete the farm for the 15 artifacts in a few hours and then? What's their incentive to continue engaging with it afterwards?

This isn't about being snarky with

"Lul just gimme an artefact in 10 minutes plz"

It's what's going to happen. If a player wants to engage with PotD while farming artifacts, actually climbing the floors will net them the artifacts and a very good rate.

As it stands, I would argue from their approach to relics, this is one of the very few where it has gone backwards. e.g., they've typically nerfed relics to compensate for the fact they won't be the relevant content, even if people still do engage with them. In this case, they've left it completely unchanged, and has only resulted in it being more tedious than it previously was.

And I'm confused here, is grinding good or not good? According to all these forum posts, grinding for causality tomes is bad, because they're given so readily, making the relic too easy to get. But now, the argument is that grinding PotD, the way it was intended, to get the relic step done is tedious?

If you started to farm an Endwalker relic today, with 0 causality tomes, it would take about 2 days to get enough causality tomes to get your first stage. If you started the PotD farm today for 15 artifacts (assuming maxed Aetherpool), it would take about 2 days (maybe even less), to complete this step. Seems like they're on par as to how long they take. So what's the reasoning for making the Endwalker relics harder to get, but then make the Bozja relics easier to get?

they've typically nerfed relics to compensate for the fact they won't be the relevant content

Have they though? I mean, you could make that argument for ARR and HW maybe, but is SB really nerfed? Eureka is still a massive grind, arguably much longer than Bozja.

And, as it stands, they could just add dungeons to farm for artifacts, in addition to PotD, so why not just do that? If your point is that players should engage with PotD, then why are there dungeons attached as well as HoH to the next step? Seems like, that would take away engagement from HoH to me. So are you arguing that there shouldn't be any dungeons included as options in the HoH step?

[Kaurhz]

Yes I understand this argument. Getting Aetherpool is a long grind.
I disagree with this. PotD is optional content for players who enjoy it. It's completely soloable from scratch, albeit slower. With a duo, it becomes a cinch. If people want to engage with the content, it's there to engage with.

Yes it is this does not, however, mean that you neglect trying to funnel some or a lot of players into doing or trying the content. Personally, if it takes upwards an hour to get into a queue with the high probability of needing to cycle a given set of floors multiple times because the game elected to not give sufficient amount of Aetherpool. – Then I see that as somewhat of an issue. If people cannot get past that initial hurdle of farming Aetherpool without essentially being told to do it all solo, then you’re likely to experience players that may like the content, otherwise dropping it because of frankly poor support for it.

So, let me see if I understand this right... A player gets Aetherpool at around +50/+50 or so, 51-60 becomes a joke, then you give these players a guaranteed 1 drop each time they run those floors, they'll complete the farm for the 15 artifacts in a few hours and then? What's their incentive to continue engaging with it afterwards?

This I would actually concede on, however I think having it guaranteed at 50, then guaranteed 2 at 100, with a further 1 per set of ten floors for 100+ would be an appropriate accommodation in this case.
You also need to consider the simple fact there are always people doing relics. Over a decade later, tonnes of people still do ARR relics. Over 5 years later – People are still doing Eureka relics, and arguably has some of the best shelf life of any given content.

And I'm confused here, is grinding good or not good? According to all these forum posts, grinding for causality tomes is bad, because they're given so readily, making the relic too easy to get. But now, the argument is that grinding PotD, the way it was intended, to get the relic step done is tedious?

If you started to farm an Endwalker relic today, with 0 causality tomes, it would take about 2 days to get enough causality tomes to get your first stage. If you started the PotD farm today for 15 artifacts (assuming maxed Aetherpool), it would take about 2 days (maybe even less), to complete this step. Seems like they're on par as to how long they take. So what's the reasoning for making the Endwalker relics harder to get, but then make the Bozja relics easier to get?

Yes, it is bad, and they are given it bountifully, and even more so under the premise that people were already doing the content which offers it anyway. My point was that relative to how the content was, it is more tedious to progress that given step. – The emphasis on more.

Your calculation wrests under the expectation that the only content people are engaging with in order to progress the relic is roulettes. If you are doing hunts, and if you are engaging with hunts even semi-actively then you progress an entire relic in 2 days, not just 1 step, and this is from scratch. On the other hand I could do a quick hunt calculation. Let's say you do hunts, there's 12 hunts, you have 8 servers, and each hunt gives 20 tomes, that's 240 per 12 hunts, which is 1 server. Multiply this across 8 servers, you then have 1920 tomes for a complete set of trains. Each A-Rank takes 4-6 hours to respawn, give a tiny bit of leeway for the train to be scouted. That's already 1920, and this doesn't factor in ARR/HW morning trains, or the occasional SB and ShB trains which give a further up-to 120, in between downtimes you can also do your roulettes. They aren't even remotely on par LOL

The reason why Endwalker relics should be harder to get, but the Bozjan relics easier? Well I don’t know – Maybe because for all intents and purposes outside of glamour, the Bozjan relic is near enough entirely irrelevant. Endwalker on the other hand is the current best weapon. Granted, it is the contrary in that Endwalker relics take less time to get than you apparently took to progress 1 step, and that is just a fact.

Have they though? I mean, you could make that argument for ARR and HW maybe, but is SB really nerfed? Eureka is still a massive grind, arguably much longer than Bozja.

Nah you an unequivocally say they all have been nerfed. Eureka takes maybe 4 days to progress a relic from start to finish, and arguably currently I would say it is still less of a grind than Bozjan. Why HW and SB? Well..
HW to my knowledge went from having, what? 3 Luminary Crystals per zone, in addition to the abysmal drop rate – To only needing I believe 1 per zone, on top of a significantly increased drop rate.
The fact all of it is dungeons, trials, etc., means it benefitted indirectly from undersized. Previously, it was what? Farm A1N, and Brayflox on bonus… Now you just farm A5S or A9S, and the game basically hands out light like candy, because you know… Level 60 isn’t exactly threatening to Level 90s

SB? The relics for Pagos were nerfed into oblivion. Vitiated light increased dramatically, and I mean dramatically. Then the crystal yield was doubled on those in something like 4.57, then you had the nerfs to the required level to attune to specific aetherytes across the zones. This made traversing a lot easier, and then the echo buff just overall made it significantly easier on top of how it was. Pazuzu would take people out in troves, now he’s barely a threat, as are the monsters needed to spawn him, and anyone else in Eureka. I don’t have a strong recollection of Anemos, Pyros, nor Hydatos aside from those.

So, absolutely yes HW and SB were absolutely, unequivocally, definitively nerfed.

As for the final point, like I said, because it incentivises more people to actually do PotD, which would probably help more people to actually like it since queues won’t be punishing, or because they wouldn’t need to go through the ordeal of soloing the place on 0AP, and 0 of the tradeable potions. All I did was specify a justification as to why I thought it would be a good idea for that particular step, and beneficial to the overall player base. The subsequent and final step to the relic is an entirely different discussion which doesn’t suffer the same problem as the Augmented Law’s Order weapon, IMO. But if you want to go there, then yes, they could add dungeons, but again, I just think it’s killing more birds with 1 stone to increase or guaranteed the rate on certain floors. The only saving grace with the resistance relics is much of the grind on the other stages is just a 1-time step thing.