Cure and it's Equivalents need to be axed

[Supersnow845]

What’s the obsession with making GCD heals damage neutral, the whole problem with healers is they have too much healing, misery doesn’t involve any sort of “choice” it just involves dumping healing whether you need it or not because misery is always a DPS gain, and that’s pretty much exactly how all DPS neutral heals would end up being

1) if it stores like misery then it’s always a DPS gain and you are punished for not using it
2) if it’s a single hit like pnuema or macrocosmos it’s functionally just your nuke with an inbuilt oGCD heal

Choice on healers should come from having to sacrifice damage to perform GCD heals and using an extremely limited suite of oGCD’s to attempt to minimise the use of GCD heals (while not being strong enough to eliminate them)

Encouraging DPS neutral GCD healing just leads to crappy modern WHM where you are vomitting out raptures for DPS gain

[Colt47]

FFXIV in general has issues with the actions available at the different levels, they just tend to have it manifest in different problems and sometimes people try to paint the problem as a benefit or making it unique. Generally they start out too simple and then due to the shift in direction with the job in how it is supposed to play, they end up with too many skills because the developers can't axe the old ones. WHM is one of those examples.

[Gemina]

What’s the obsession with making GCD heals damage neutral, the whole problem with healers is they have too much healing, misery doesn’t involve any sort of “choice” it just involves dumping healing whether you need it or not because misery is always a DPS gain, and that’s pretty much exactly how all DPS neutral heals would end up being

1) if it stores like misery then it’s always a DPS gain and you are punished for not using it
2) if it’s a single hit like pnuema or macrocosmos it’s functionally just your nuke with an inbuilt oGCD heal

Choice on healers should come from having to sacrifice damage to perform GCD heals and using an extremely limited suite of oGCD’s to attempt to minimise the use of GCD heals (while not being strong enough to eliminate them)

Encouraging DPS neutral GCD healing just leads to crappy modern WHM where you are vomitting out raptures for DPS gain

The meta won't allow it. You know this. So the idea is to return the damage they lose casting GCD heals, which gives a feeling of returning the punishment inflicted on your teammates back to the enemy. If DPS gain is not added to it, then there is no incentive for healers to do it. All you're accomplishing by making healers choose between heals and DPS is making them work harder for an even lesser rewarding experience.

[Supersnow845]

The meta won't allow it. You know this. So the idea is to return the damage they lose casting GCD heals, which gives a feeling of returning the punishment inflicted on your teammates back to the enemy. If DPS gain is not added to it, then there is no incentive for healers to do it. All you're accomplishing by making healers choose between heals and DPS is making them work harder for an even lesser rewarding experience.

The meta doesn’t allow it because oGCD’s are too strong, the oGCD’s need to be nerfed into the ground, they are too powerful, oGCD’s should be a first and limited line of defence, not the totality of your healing, that’s the only reason GCD’s feel so bad

This is literally how the meta worked pre ShB, square creates this problem themselves now people are acting like the obvious solution is impossible, you should be forced to chose, you shouldn’t get everything for free, that’s the most basic tenant of healing

[AmiableApkallu]

The meta won't allow it. You know this. So the idea is to return the damage they lose casting GCD heals, which gives a feeling of returning the punishment inflicted on your teammates back to the enemy. If DPS gain is not added to it, then there is no incentive for healers to do it. All you're accomplishing by making healers choose between heals and DPS is making them work harder for an even lesser rewarding experience.

GCD heals pose no problem for "the meta."

Any minimally knowledgeable healer understands and appreciates the idea that a GCD spent healing can be a net gain for for the party's total damage output vs. spending that GCD on ye olde Glarficosisoil nuke or whatever new button one might come up with. Indeed, why else would a healer (or SMN or RDM) bother raising anyone?

[ty_taurus]

What’s the obsession with making GCD heals damage neutral, the whole problem with healers is they have too much healing, misery doesn’t involve any sort of “choice” it just involves dumping healing whether you need it or not because misery is always a DPS gain, and that’s pretty much exactly how all DPS neutral heals would end up being

1) if it stores like misery then it’s always a DPS gain and you are punished for not using it
2) if it’s a single hit like pnuema or macrocosmos it’s functionally just your nuke with an inbuilt oGCD heal

Choice on healers should come from having to sacrifice damage to perform GCD heals and using an extremely limited suite of oGCD’s to attempt to minimise the use of GCD heals (while not being strong enough to eliminate them)

Encouraging DPS neutral GCD healing just leads to crappy modern WHM where you are vomitting out raptures for DPS gain

I don't think neutral healing is inherently a bad concept, but the problem is you have too little control over the ability to utilize it, and it's too frequent for how free it is. Lilies, for example, are available for free every 20 seconds (of which you can stack up to 3) with no MP cost, no cast time, and while "Neutral" in numbers, is technically a gain when used in buff windows.

If instead, lilies were always available, but had a steep MP cost while regular Cure spells were very cheap if not free, then there'd be a lot more agency with how you utilized Solace and Rapture, but you'd also want to contrast that with another high MP cost reward to work with, like if instead of a standard spammable AOE attack, Holy were also a high damage attack with some sort of cooldown or limit to its use, then you want to make sure you have the MP for Holy casts while engaging with lilies as you feel is appropriate. This was the premise behind old Energy Drain back when it actually was a strong and important part of your gameplay.

[Supersnow845]

That’s pretty much the same concept by a different name (not that I disagree), there needs to be a cost or a decision to be made on the healing

In my example the choice is between a damage spell or a healing spell, in yours it’s a choice between a healing spell or a damage neutral healing spell that costs a lot of MP, either way it’s an active choice you have to make that punishes you if you make the wrong choice, both are solutions I can see working

The problem with current DPS neutral healing is there is no choice, pnuema and macrocosmos are just functional oGCD’s and lilys are a DPS gain that are also a heal, a movement tool and free weave space

Energy drain combined with quickened aetherflow and hen energy drain restored MP is like you said another good example of this, energy drain wasn’t so much valued for its damage as it was the fact it was an MP recovery tool at the expense of raw healing, again it was a choice that provided benefit if used right but punished you if used wrong, now energy drain is basically just “if we don’t die by not using sacred soil then energy drain is always the correct choice”

[Gemina]

The meta doesn’t allow it because oGCD’s are too strong, the oGCD’s need to be nerfed into the ground, they are too powerful, oGCD’s should be a first and limited line of defence, not the totality of your healing, that’s the only reason GCD’s feel so bad

This is literally how the meta worked pre ShB, square creates this problem themselves now people are acting like the obvious solution is impossible, you should be forced to chose, you shouldn’t get everything for free, that’s the most basic tenant of healing

I'm not arguing with you at all. I think oGCD heals should be stripped from the game entirely, or be given very long cooldowns similar to benediction. But that is a different issue. The pressing issue are GCD heals themselves and how they are frowned upon because you sacrifice damage to use them. There is no choosing between damage and healing. This is an illusion. If you need to heal, you heal. If you don't you do damage. That is the way of it. Stripping the game of oGCD heals or making them less potent doesn't change this. Any free resource towards healing will always be used to extend DPS duration windows.

GCD heals pose no problem for "the meta."

Any minimally knowledgeable healer understands and appreciates the idea that a GCD spent healing can be a net gain for for the party's total damage output vs. spending that GCD on ye olde Glarficosisoil nuke or whatever new button one might come up with. Indeed, why else would a healer (or SMN or RDM) bother raising anyone?

I am no friend to the meta, but I understand all to well that if anything other than an offensive skill spins the GCD, it is heavily frowned upon. This includes GCD heals. Even then, the offensive skill you choose to use has to be most optimal in the lineup. You understand the value of GCD heals, the problem is this only has merit after you have exhausted your healing abilities (oGCDs). That is the pressing issue at hand.

[Aravell]

I'm not arguing with you at all. I think oGCD heals should be stripped from the game entirely, or be given very long cooldowns similar to benediction. But that is a different issue. The pressing issue are GCD heals themselves and how they are frowned upon because you sacrifice damage to use them. There is no choosing between damage and healing. This is an illusion. If you need to heal, you heal. If you don't you do damage. That is the way of it. Stripping the game of oGCD heals or making them less potent doesn't change this. Any free resource towards healing will always be used to extend DPS duration windows.

I have to ask, why should the game be designed around what the community is frowning upon? Why does the game have to be designed around "the meta"? That's exactly what got us the much criticised 2 minute burst meta.

I think the devs should actually just ignore "the meta" and "absolute balance", they followed their own design without caring much about the player-created meta back in HW and SB, the jobs back then were unique and fun. They need to stop chasing absolute balance and make a fun game first without caring about the meta-chasers, as long as every job can clear every content, then balance is fine.

[MsMisato]

IMO, I think the game's difficulty just needs to be increased so it encourages players to use other abilities from their toolkit. No need to prune abilities even more.

lol they toned the difficulty quite a bit and this where are today