Cure and it's Equivalents need to be axed

[Supersnow845]

^the game used to teach you it was bad by actually having a thing called mana management (try spamming medica 2 like your average alliance WHM on ARR WHM when accounting for mana differences and lack of mana regen control medica 2 would cost the equivalent of about 2500-4000 MP per cast back then) but like everything else remotely good about healers that got ripped out when they nuked healers from orbit in ShB

Old healers taught you how to heal correctly and you were less pressured to DPS because it was harder, they are the best of all healer worlds and we lost them to get 4 flavours of 1 trash fire we have now

[Solakor]

^the game used to teach you it was bad by actually having a thing called mana management (try spamming medica 2 like your average alliance WHM on ARR WHM when accounting for mana differences and lack of mana regen control medica 2 would cost the equivalent of about 2500-4000 MP per cast back then) but like everything else remotely good about healers that got ripped out when they nuked healers from orbit in ShB

Old healers taught you how to heal correctly and you were less pressured to DPS because it was harder, they are the best of all healer worlds and we lost them to get 4 flavours of 1 trash fire we have now

Not just healers. The game had systems in place for every class so that you got punished for playing wrong. It's pretty funny. Game can't have failstates because it would drive new guys away? Imagine if someone said that during ARR - SB while the population was constantly growing. Ppl would laugh in your face and say git gud but now we gotta cater to every lazy person who doesn't want to read anything and wants the game to play by itself. And ppl keep saying everything is better now lmao.

Also I think the mentality that you need to delete something so ppl learn to play is wrong. This kind of mentality is why we are here now because ppl wanted to remove anything that wasn't optimal. The game lost nuance and character. You can't teach a player who doesn't want to learn and some of the learning is done with interacting with ppl. Sometimes you need to get told you are doing something wrong but because SE has made some ridiculous rules about conversation in this game the community has been festered with asinine mentality that you can do whatever tf you want and don't have to interact with ppl in an MMO btw. Or better yet, the one who is right gets a strike or banned.

[KageTokage]

Cure and its fellows would've had a place at the higher levels if there was more of a need for focused single target healing that can't simply be covered with an OGCD or two and if MP management was an actual issue outside of rez spamming.

[Sebazy]

Lukewarm take: Don't roll Cure 1 into Cure 2, roll it into Esuna instead to help both feel like they have more purpose whilst also consolidating keys at the same time.

[NekoMataMata]

Lukewarm take: Don't roll Cure 1 into Cure 2, roll it into Esuna instead to help both feel like they have more purpose whilst also consolidating keys at the same time.

And this is why you died during your last level 90 roulette when you took a random hit that you definitely shouldn't have and got doomed or why your tank got shredded in P12S.

Esuna is obviously niche and not something you spam, but it's still relevant in current content. They could've thrown it around a bit more in EW's savage since the only fight it gets any use in is P12S if I remember right, but it's still relevant?

Upgrading Cure 1 into a copy of BLU mages Exuviation isn't going to do anything really.

[Sebazy]

And this is why you died during your last level 90 roulette when you took a random hit that you definitely shouldn't have and got doomed or why your tank got shredded in P12S.

Esuna is obviously niche and not something you spam, but it's still relevant in current content. They could've thrown it around a bit more in EW's savage since the only fight it gets any use in is P12S if I remember right, but it's still relevant?

Ehm? You're saying that to someone who used to Esuna Warrior Pacification

I'm not denying Esuna's importance within it's niche, the issue is that when it's not within it's niche, it's literal dead weight. Whilst you and I might well understand the ebb and flow of it's importance, a *LOT* of people seem to struggle with that. It's not even just the importance of certain key mechanics that use it such as Dooms or Vulns, it's also really poorly explained when it's not worth casting too. I remember getting stick over a video I posted in one of the Stormblood dungeons where I didn't Esuna a poison dot off the tank despite the fact it was doing basically nothing.

Trying to twist my comment against me is missing the point here, if you're struggling to remember where it's been relevant this expansion, how do you expect a casual healer to do any better?

Besides it just seems like a no brainer to merge them to me. They are both very fast casting GCD and efficient niche restorative effects and IMO there's certainly room to add more besides. Adding more utility and value to that button should get it pressed more often which should hopefully improve the likelihood of little Timmy healer remembering to press it next time they see said dungeon doom or such. Keep it relevant in people's minds rather than it being something that gets dug out for maybe 1 or 2 key mechanics per patch cycle++

[Supersnow845]

I’d rather esuna be something more like old shroud of saints, had two non damage non healing abilities on one (of course shroud of saints secondary effect is useless because of tank stance but you get the point)

I’m also in support of returning fey caress. Expedient shows that utility skills that don’t amount to more damage or mitigation have a niche

[NekoMataMata]

Ehm? You're saying that to someone who used to Esuna Warrior Pacification

I'm not denying Esuna's importance within it's niche, the issue is that when it's not within it's niche, it's literal dead weight. Whilst you and I might well understand the ebb and flow of it's importance, a *LOT* of people seem to struggle with that. It's not even just the importance of certain key mechanics that use it such as Dooms or Vulns, it's also really poorly explained when it's not worth casting too. I remember getting stick over a video I posted in one of the Stormblood dungeons where I didn't Esuna a poison dot off the tank despite the fact it was doing basically nothing.

Trying to twist my comment against me is missing the point here, if you're struggling to remember where it's been relevant this expansion, how do you expect a casual healer to do any better?

Besides it just seems like a no brainer to merge them to me. They are both very fast casting GCD and efficient niche restorative effects and IMO there's certainly room to add more besides. Adding more utility and value to that button should get it pressed more often which should hopefully improve the likelihood of little Timmy healer remembering to press it next time they see said dungeon doom or such. Keep it relevant in people's minds rather than it being something that gets dug out for maybe 1 or 2 key mechanics per patch cycle++

There's a handful of niche skills and abilities in the game though. I don't think being niche should mean removal. Just because you're not spamming something doesn't mean it doesn't deserve to exist.

This is one of those situations where the game doesn't need to change, the players need to change. Put your buttons on your bars. I play with a controller using 3 sets of cross hotbars. If I can do it, anyone can.

I'm not saying this to argue against button condensation either. I believe that it should be done where possible. I'm not saying this to argue against the idea that healers need changes overall. They do.

It's just we've reached the point where the bar is so low and we really want to lower it into the ground because the general playerbase don't want to put in the effort to learn their jobs.

Also, I'm not trying to twist your comment against you. Don't try to victimize yourself or make my response seem like some sort of moral issue when it's not.

[Sebazy]

There's a handful of niche skills and abilities in the game though. I don't think being niche should mean removal. Just because you're not spamming something doesn't mean it doesn't deserve to exist.

Are you misreading my initial point perhaps? To be clear, I didn't say that Esuna had no point, rather I'd like to give it more of a point. Likewise, I'm not suggesting it's removed at all, quite the opposite in fact, I was working on the assumption that it would still be called Esuna since it's an iconic spell name and it still fits well with WHM's current light biased theme and that we'd simply be taking Cure 1's potency and slapping it on Esuna alongside the cleanse.

This is one of those situations where the game doesn't need to change, the players need to change. Put your buttons on your bars. I play with a controller using 3 sets of cross hotbars. If I can do it, anyone can.

Unfortunately I don't think the players will change without the game itself ushering that in first. Who's to say they don't have it hot keyed? I suspect they simply don't remember to use it or more likely don't even spot the cleanseable doom debuff because it's something the average player is only ever going to see once in a blue moon in certain circumstances within a tiny number of very specific encounters.

The game could absolutely do a better job of highlighting cleanses and it could also absolutely do a better job of actually rewarding that play. Imagine if Esuna gave us an actual noteworthy buff for getting that cleanse. It's also an easy way to break the current tick tock cadence that healers suffer so badly with at the moment. I'll absolutely take ANYTHING to break up the glare monotony in mainstream content at this point and this is just another option on that list.

Ruling it out simply because you don't think the bar should be lower is misguided IMO, the bar hit the floor long ago already.

Healer abilities are a clusterfuq of nonsense that is essentially like having a tool box full of flat head and Philips screwdrivers: Some might be more efficient than others, but they all do the same thing. Healer engagement has nearly zero to do with their kits, and everything to do with the encounter and the performance of other players.

I'll add that some of those screwdrivers make it REALLY hard for SE to tune any real healer engagement into content and it gets exponentially worse the more casual and mainstream you go. I've mathed it up a few times in various threads, but the amount of sustained incoming damage you need to pressure a capable healer into spending 30-50% of their GCDs on healing is pretty insane, especially if you're not throwing EX/Savage tier movement pressure into the mix as well, and then immediately run into the problem of our MP economy not being able to sustain this sort of GCD pressure and of course all the old support abilities from the past that solved this issue are long consigned to the bin.

It really is remarkable how deep a hole SE have dug themselves into with regards to healer/healing design.

[Gemina]

I'll add that some of those screwdrivers make it REALLY hard for SE to tune any real healer engagement into content and it gets exponentially worse the more casual and mainstream you go. I've mathed it up a few times in various threads, but the amount of sustained incoming damage you need to pressure a capable healer into spending 30-50% of their GCDs on healing is pretty insane, especially if you're not throwing EX/Savage tier movement pressure into the mix as well, and then immediately run into the problem of our MP economy not being able to sustain this sort of GCD pressure and of course all the old support abilities from the past that solved this issue are long consigned to the bin.

It really is remarkable how deep a hole SE have dug themselves into with regards to healer/healing design.

Indeed. Healer design does not have to be as convoluted as this dev team has made it to be. They have already resolved it, but can't see it through the gas of their own farts. The entire concept is baked right into the mechanics of Afflatus Misery for WHM, and Toxicon for SGE. You simply tie the brunt of healing to GCDs that rewards the healer by granting access to punishing offensive attacks. The only issue is that the enemy has to actually be able to hurt players for them to be effective. So when a job like WAR can not only sustain themselves, but also take care of healing the entire party, it causes major issues.

The other issue is skills like Misery and Toxicon lose some luster on ST. Typically, in order to reduce skill bloat, heavy hitting skills have falloff on multiple targets instead of having ST and AoE versions. Healers should be the exception to this. GCD heals granting access to offensive payback should actually be FOUR different offensive skills (ST nuke, AoE nuke no falloff, ST DoT, AoE DoT no falloff), the healer will need to choose which one is the most effective for the current situation, and they will be forced to make this decision before having to heal again so they don't lose out on additional resources. Again, this already exists for WHM and SGE so I am not asking to dev team to do anything groundbreaking. This right here could give SCH's beloved Bane back to them.

As for button bloat. Simple. There is an abundance of oGCD heals that only serve to weaken healer engagement that can be pruned right the eff out of the game. Want to know why Indom, one of SCH's most powerful aetherflow skills takes a backseat to Emergency Tactics+Succor for me? Because it sucks. That's why. It feels so much better to do the latter, and I don't give a eff how it isn't optimal. I honestly can't even remember the last time I used Indom. I still use Adlo, especially when paired with Recitation, or Recitation+Adlo+deployment tactics. The junction of skills dynamic for SCH is friggin awesome. It really gives a sense of meaning to their kits and I love it.