I'm bored when I heal because I need more complex DPS rotations

[Grizzlpaw]

You forgot Toxikon

[Supersnow845]

It really is hilarious (in a bad way) that the healer square keeps pointing us to is literally the simplest of the 4 healers from a DPS perspective by quite a wide margin

Like at least WHM has POM and downtime misery optimisation as well as trying to make assize also function as a healing tool despite using it off CD, SGE has what, press 2 phlegma in burst window for someone else’s rDPS

[IDontPetLalas]

Meanwhile Sage has less DPS abilities than every other healer somehow:

WHM: Glare/Holy, Dia, Afflatus Misery, Assize, Presence of Mind
SCH: Broil/Art of War, Biolysis, Energy Drain, Chain Stratagem
AST: Malefic/Gravtiy, Combust, Earthly Star, Minor Arcana, Draw & Play, Divination, Astrodyne
SGE: Dosis/Dyskrasia, Eukrasian Dosis, Phlegma

regarding AST- well technically correct if are counting keystrokes, otherwise "Draw & Play" aren't useful in and of themselves so I wouldn't add in 'draw and play" for AST. In addition, Minor Arcana is subject to RNG (only Lord of Crowns is a DPS skill) , and Astrodyne is also subject to RNG.

Okay, I went back and edited that because someone is likely going to correct me and say 'well, yes- but you're going to play a card", which is quite correct.

[ForsakenRoe]

You forgot Toxikon

Think they skipped it on account of it being scuffed Ruin 2/being damage neutral to Dosis, they also left Ruin 2 off the list, we wouldn't consider Macro or Pneuma for the 'damage neutral' reason either

But even if we did consider Toxikon, it's still one less button for SGE than the next lowest (WHM). Eukrasia was meant to be a way to save hotbar space so we could effectively get more actions with less button realestate used, but they didn't make much/any real use of it. Just 'it's reverse Emergency Tactics', turning our Succor into a shield variant. Why can't we have, eg, Eukrasian Phlegma, which deals some damage and applies the DOT to all enemies within range, but for a reduced duration/with reduced potency? So if we have Phlegma as 660 atm, E.Phlegma could deal say 200, plus 15s of DOT to each enemy, being 375, meaning a total of 575 per enemy. Less than the current Phlegma, but enough to be a gain on 2 targets and above if they live for that long? Why can't Toxikon be more interesting than just 'scuffed Ruin 2'? Why can't Pepsis be more interesting than 'wonky backwards Emergency Tactics', etc

[Supersnow845]

Yeah when you look at buttons you functionally press in a normal situation SGE won’t press toxicon, SCH won’t press ruin 2 and pnuema/macrocosmos are basically just oGCD heals since you can’t optimise them at all

It’s really only broil, ED, chain, biolysis, dosis, e dosis, phlegma, malefic, combust, cards, minor arcana, star, astrodyne, glare, dia, assize, lily’s POM and assize that matter and I’m pushing it with the DOT’s since you can’t optimise the DOT’s in any way (star and assize only really get a pass because they can be optimised on the heal front so you aren’t wasting the heal front even though you have to use them off CD)

[Mithron]

Isn't Toxicon technically a DPS loss since you need to press Eukrasia and Diagnosis whereas Dosis just needs 1 GCD? I mean sure, if you need to use Eukrasian Diagnosis it won't be as much of a DPS loss in single target, but still Eukrasia is a GCD even if it's fast

[Supersnow845]

Isn't Toxicon technically a DPS loss since you need to press Eukrasia and Diagnosis whereas Dosis just needs 1 GCD? I mean sure, if you need to use Eukrasian Diagnosis it won't be as much of a DPS loss in single target, but still Eukrasia is a GCD even if it's fast

A toxicon generated in uptime is a 330 potency DPS loss yes, unless it’s countered by a movement that cannot be slidecasted and you have none of your 3 initial toxicon stacks remaining, so it’s neutral against spending a GCD casting nothing

Toxicon generated in downtime is neutral against dosis

[ForsakenRoe]

Isn't Toxicon technically a DPS loss since you need to press Eukrasia and Diagnosis whereas Dosis just needs 1 GCD? I mean sure, if you need to use Eukrasian Diagnosis it won't be as much of a DPS loss in single target, but still Eukrasia is a GCD even if it's fast

Yes, you lose one Dosis of damage per Toxikon you prep and fire during uptime. If you need to shield, you shield, as is our job as a healer, but ideally you would avoid preparing Toxikon charges in uptime, instead putting shields out during downtimes where they are 'free'

If you want to get hypertechnical, I guess it could be argued that you lose slightly more than one Dosis worth of damage depending on spellspeed, as Eukrasia/E.Diagnosis' recasts are not affected by spellspeed, making them always 2.50 combined, whereas your general recast time (and therefore Dosis) might be 2.48 or 2.43 or whatever (depends what kind of spellspeed SE lumped on the gear)

[ty_taurus]

Think they skipped it on account of it being scuffed Ruin 2/being damage neutral to Dosis, they also left Ruin 2 off the list, we wouldn't consider Macro or Pneuma for the 'damage neutral' reason either

But even if we did consider Toxikon, it's still one less button for SGE than the next lowest (WHM). Eukrasia was meant to be a way to save hotbar space so we could effectively get more actions with less button realestate used, but they didn't make much/any real use of it. Just 'it's reverse Emergency Tactics', turning our Succor into a shield variant. Why can't we have, eg, Eukrasian Phlegma, which deals some damage and applies the DOT to all enemies within range, but for a reduced duration/with reduced potency? So if we have Phlegma as 660 atm, E.Phlegma could deal say 200, plus 15s of DOT to each enemy, being 375, meaning a total of 575 per enemy. Less than the current Phlegma, but enough to be a gain on 2 targets and above if they live for that long? Why can't Toxikon be more interesting than just 'scuffed Ruin 2'? Why can't Pepsis be more interesting than 'wonky backwards Emergency Tactics', etc

^ This.

Toxikon is the Stormblood Lilies of EW. Counting it as an actual part of your DPS gameplay is misleading.

As for Eukrasian Phlegma... In my world, Kardia effects don't exist on standard spells and only apply to Eukrasian spells, in which Phlegma eats a chunk of MP to deal slightly less damage and apply a barrier to your Kardion target.

A toxicon generated in uptime is a 330 potency DPS loss yes, unless it’s countered by a movement that cannot be slidecasted and you have none of your 3 initial toxicon stacks remaining, so it’s neutral against spending a GCD casting nothing

Toxicon generated in downtime is neutral against dosis

Actually, say you're in a movement scenario where you need to lose 1 GCD's worth of casting. Generating Toxikon with a Eukrasian Diagnosis/Prognosis is DPS neutral with just not casting something at all.

Dosis + Dosis + Dosis = 990 potency
Dosis + Dosis + Nothing = 660 potency
Dosis + Barrier + Toxikon = 660 potency

Toxikon is only a gain if you're forced to move continuously for more than 2.5 seconds, which is exceedingly rare. And you have to challenge that with the potential to cast Eukrasian Dosis or Phlegma instead. If you have a Phlegma charge you can burn, that is significantly better. Overwriting your Eukrasian Dosis is also better if the duration of your DOT is less than 15 seconds remaining.

[Supersnow845]

^unless I’m misinterpreting you that’s exactly what I said

If you have a scenario when the alternative is just dropping a cast then toxicon is DPS neutral